France to Fine Women Wearing Full-Faced Islamic Veils

by leavingwt 54 Replies latest social current

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Related, in Britain. . .

    Muslim Council: women cannot debate wearing veil

    The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) said that not covering the face is a "shortcoming" and suggested that any Muslims who advocate being uncovered could be guilty of rejecting Islam.

    In a statement published on its website the MCB, warns: "We advise all Muslims to exercise extreme caution on this issue, since denying any part of Islam may lead to disbelief.

    "Not practising something enjoined by Allah and his Messenger… is a shortcoming. Denying it is much more serious."

    The statement quotes from the Koran: "It is not for a believer, man or woman, that they should have any option in their decision when Allah and his Messenger have decreed a matter."

    . . .

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8455955/Muslim-Council-women-cannot-debate-wearing-veil.html

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I came upon the French discussion of religious freedom this past week. They have a concept called laicete that is completely lacking in American political thought. They believe the individual must be protected from religion as much as religion must be protected from the state. Someone discussed this in a past thread. The European model was churches representing the aristocracy, antilibertarian, reactionary strand. Conservative is too mild a word. The French Revolution had many anticlerical manifestations. American history was very different.

    We have a bright line in the U.S. for free exercise of religion. The Establishment Clause is extremely muddled. No court would find the burqa ban constitutional. My gut reaction is the American one is correct. How do I discount the fact that I am an American and proud of it, for the most part? Frenchmen would claim they protect free exercise, too.

    It reminds me of the Soviet dissidents imprisoned as mental patients. No Western doctor ever saw a shred of evidence of mental illness. Soviet doctors sincerely believed dissent was a manifestation of illness. This burqa ban is very similar to wearing a yellow star on clothing to denote you are Jewish. The Nuremberg laws were passed. It is chilling.

    Sometimes my hatred of the Witnesses overtakes my better judgment. My mom was expelled from high school for not saluting the flag. It shattered her. France would find not saluting the flag interferes with social cohesion. Americans don't know what social cohesion is. We are used to diversity. Different strokes for different folks. The German example is too clear. France was occupid and yet people forget. Good Frenchmen, not just Vichy, cooperated with the hauling of jews into ovens. It almost always starts small.

    The US may have just lost its position as enemy no. 1. As a NYer, I am glad.

    Has anyone discussed Sarkosy being right wing in this context. How are the more to the left political parties responding?

  • bobld
    bobld

    Burka today.Political control tomorrow,with more Muslims coming into western countries it is only a matter of time when they seize power.What will happen is religious intolerance.The Qur'an will prevail over all religions,cultures,countries.

    Do you want

    Muslims wivies(you)-sexual property of husbands,totally dependent and obedient to their husbands even if they are evil-Husbands are taught to beat their wivies into submission.

    How about honour killings,pre-arranged marriages.THESE are just the tip of the iceburg.

    Do you know what is req'd to design a restroom for muslim users.Do you see any point of taking a picture of a muslim woman in a black burka,total waste of time.

    Remember the 1st step when you became a -------------.Now it's is total control of where you work,who you can marry,how much school you can have,type of dress,etc..........TOTAL control of the upper powers.

    Sorry for the long BS.There is a whole lot more of how evil this religion is,don't let the burka fool you,they just want to prove a point about freedom of religion my ass.Remember the Danish cartoon,freedom of speech for who.global muslim furar with death threats.

    B

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    This French law is religious intolerance! Duh! It could not be clearer. Valid competing claims exist here. The right of an individual to be free from religious coercion. 2. a religion's rights and the religion's adherents right to be free from governmental controls. Here, the French govt is controlling the free exercise of Islam.

    Why do people only care about religious intolerance from Moslems. Christians have more than been intolerant. The Inquistion. The burning of religious dissidents at the stake. Henry VIII's slaying of loyal Catholics. French Protestants slain by the Medici queen. I am an English history buff. The period of Henry VIII and Elizabeth was chilling. It was unclear for decades which religion would rule England. Depending on where you lived, it could be x in one part of England and y, a county away. People wanted to live their lives in peace. The government killed people for standing during communion. A battle was fought, power changed. People were executed for kneeling during communion. Archaeologists have found hiding places all over the place for rosary beads. You might need them to live at 9am, by 3pm, possession of said beads could mean death.

    The first English translation of the Bible was executed. I am a NYer. Islamic intolerance bothers me. What did Jesus say about the beam in your eye?

    We don't worry about religious intoleration from Jews. I submit it is because they've assimilated racially. If Moslems were mostly white, this debate would change.

    I don't know the answer for France. It would be unconsciable in the United States. I am too American to trash all my upbringing and beliefs. Al-Qaeda cannot take down New York or DC. If people are slain, others will rise up and take their places as American who believe in freedom. Al-Qaeda can never win militarily. Losing our valued civil rights and civil liberties, the very things that make us American is what will defeat us. Islamic radicals can triggers us to forget our values and win. Once a woman must pay a fine for wearing a burqa in the US, we have lost and lost completely.

    Between the birthers and this Moslem "not white" racism, I can see how some people were good JWs. I refuse to be a good JW.

  • bobld
    bobld

    Band on the run do not be fooled Burka is the 1st step.

    Sharia law is next.As an example.Archbishop of Canterbury,Dr Rowan Willaims declared that Bristish Sharia was "inevitable" In fact,instrument for expanding it already exist.

    Also see "Introduction to the Muslim culture" and a peace by Damian Thompson,Telegraph co.uk.

    B

    The very things you mentioned will happen when Muslims take control.

  • Terra Incognita
    Terra Incognita

    Band on the Run: "Why do people only care about religious intolerance from Moslems."

    Because they're hypocrites who cannot smell their own. Let's see who can smell the stench below.

    1. How the former slaves of Israel treated their own slaves.

    a. Non Israelites taken as slaves for life. (Lev 25:44-46)

    b. A Hebrew slave was obligated for only six years of slavery but had to leave behind the wife his master gave him along with his children. (Ex 21:2-6; De 15:12-18)

    c. An ‘eye for an eye’ did not apply when they took their slaves eye out. (Ex 21:26-27 compare to Lev 24:19-21)

    d. They could beat their slave savagely with a stick so long as he or she did not die within a day or two. (Ex 21:20-21 compare to Ex 2:11-12)

    e. A man could sell his daughter into slavery. (Ex 21:7-11)

    2. Exterminate thy neighbors. (Lv 19:18)

    a. All of them some of the time. (De 3:1-6)

    b. Men only at other times. Women and children are plunder. (De 20:10-18)

    c. Everyone except virgin girls when the mood strikes. (Nu 31:13-18)

    3. How the Israelites treated their ladies.

    a.They executed the victim of rape if she was engaged to be married. (De 22:23-24)

    b.They forced the victim of rape to marry her rapist if she was single. (De 22:28-29)

    c.She’s got some balls. Women get their hands cut off for defending her husbands. (De 25:11-12)

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises

    Bandontherun,

    Carry on all you like about Catholicism in the past, but the fact is that we're dealing with the problem of fundamental Islamics who want to make the world an Islamic one.

    The French have done the right thing. I hope other countries have the balls to do the same.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    skeeter1 That is the funniest thing I have seen for a while. I have finally stopped laughing.......that guy in the background is trying to keep a straight face too. If it was me I would have been struggling. In fact you probably would have had to pick me up off the floor.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Almost every country trumpets Free Exercise of Religion. Communist China did. Words are easy. Soaring language is nice in definiing document. The real test for political and civil rights is protection of the minority. I became a lawyer b/c my mom was expelled from high school for not saluting the flag. No one is denying that there is not tension between a Western view and the Moslem world.

    Why don't people worry about the lack of religious freedom in China? Hindus dominate Indian society. Why no concern for Indian immigration to the US. Moslems provide a boogey man. I've known many Moslems living in NY. They are NO threat. A woman banned from wearing a burqa infringes my personal rights. The Constitution is a living document, not a sterile document in the National Archives. It must be written in our hearts and defended with our actions. Gore did not start a civil war when he lost Bush v. Gore. Dred Scott is the most ignoble Supreme Court decision of all times. It sparked the Civil War. Yet Americans obeyed it. Korematsu was another disaster. It upheld the internment of loyal Japanese American citizens during WWII. When it was argued, solid evidence existed from military officials that Japanese Americans were never a threat. There were spies but not these people. People obeyed the order.

    We are a nation of laws and principles or a chaotic mess of shifting popular values. Supreme Court justices frequently believe the Court is wrong. The belief is that we have more freedom in a nation of laws than a nation of passions.

    This is the cause of my life. I would die for it. Hopefully, it won't be necessary. Living in lower NY, 9/11 affected me so globally. I flinched before my mind was conscious of a miitary plane overhead. Half my fire house perished. I dated, worked, shopped, did dry cleaning at the World Trade Center. There was no escape from grief b/c it was so public. One of my biggest fears was using a taxi again. Most of the drivers are Middle Eastern. I was so furious that I feared I would screech and maybe strangle. In the past, I had some shouting matches. If a woman politely asks for a certain route, their manhood is often triggered. Some of them are not even frightened by promises to report them so they are fined. I fretted. During the aftermath, I also had to go to Bellevue for medical treatment. The main trauma center for the city had thousands of flyers of the missing with votive candles blzing on a temporary construction wall. Two weeks from the attack, Bellevue was as crowded as a busy subway stop. A woman was in the crowd with heavy burqa. All you could see were the eyes. No one noticed. America is defined by such freedom. Finally, I hailed a taxi. He was an Egyptian college student. Very nice. Tension existed for a few minutes. Soon we had an animated conversation.

    Focus on specific instances of intolerance from a few people who happen to be Moslem, just as there always have been a few Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists who are intolerant. I grew up being told Russians who kill me and deny any right to worship. Interestingly, as soon as the Communists fell, the Russian Orthdox Church emerged, stronger than ever. Propaganda is propaganda. It serves a legitimate purpose. Radical Moslems pose a threat but the marketplace of ideas is the place to engage them. Denying ourselves the rights countless Americans died preserving is pointless. We are shooting ourselves.

  • J. Hofer
    J. Hofer

    every religion has it's list of intolerance, but currently islam is the most threatening religion. catholics don't run around killing people when some weird mullah burns a bible, but muslims do when some weird priest burns a quran.

    most muslim women don't wear burqa. this has nothing to do with religious freedom. there are things that can't be covered by religious freedom. what about female circumsition? would you support that too?

    rastafarians are not allowed to smoke weed either, although it's part of their religion...

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