Why FAITH is actually a form of suicide

by Terry 99 Replies latest jw friends

  • The Scotsman
    The Scotsman

    Terry - frankly???? - your talking trasho man.

    psacramento said -

    I have faith in my doctor when he writes me a prescription for my kids.
    I have faith in my welders when they weld a job and I am not on top opf them "24/7".
    I have faith in my wifes driving skills when she takes the kids for a drive.
    Etc, etc.

    Then terry you come back with -

    Nice try!
    Substitute the word "confidence" for the word "faith" and you've got it accurate.

    We can all "change the words around" to suit our argument. Is it confidence or is it faith. Personally I think faith is more appropriate. Condidence does not seem to do some of the many examples I could produce any justice.

    I have faith that when I breath, air will go in my lungs - or is that confidence - or is it just belief? Ah - its all to do with our personal definition of words and - most importantly - our starting point. If we are angling at trashing FAITH we will never admit to the word having any real meaning in day to day living.

    FAITH can only apply to the unseen and the unprovable

    I see God every day - in the world around me - so "from my perspective" or "my starting point" - I have Faith in something I CAN see and something I CAN prove.

    My faith in God is far from blind.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    You are arguing semantics Terry.

    I have faith in my wifes faitfulness to me, and her to mine.

    faith (fath)
    n.
    1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

    2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.

    3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.

    4. often FaithChristianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

    5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.

    6. A set of principles or beliefs.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Bible Dictionary

    Faith definition


    Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true (Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests. Faith is the result of teaching (Rom. 10:14-17). Knowledge is an essential element in all faith, and is sometimes spoken of as an equivalent to faith (John 10:38; 1 John 2:3). Yet the two are distinguished in this respect, that faith includes in it assent, which is an act of the will in addition to the act of the understanding. Assent to the truth is of the essence of faith, and the ultimate ground on which our assent to any revealed truth rests is the veracity of God. Historical faith is the apprehension of and assent to certain statements which are regarded as mere facts of history. Temporary faith is that state of mind which is awakened in men (e.g., Felix) by the exhibition of the truth and by the influence of religious sympathy, or by what is sometimes styled the common operation of the Holy Spirit. Saving faith is so called because it has eternal life inseparably connected with it. It cannot be better defined than in the words of the Assembly's Shorter Catechism: "Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving grace, whereby we receive and rest upon him alone for salvation, as he is offered to us in the gospel." The object of saving faith is the whole revealed Word of God. Faith accepts and believes it as the very truth most sure. But the special act of faith which unites to Christ has as its object the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 7:38; Acts 16:31). This is the specific act of faith by which a sinner is justified before God (Rom. 3:22, 25; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; John 3:16-36; Acts 10:43; 16:31). In this act of faith the believer appropriates and rests on Christ alone as Mediator in all his offices. This assent to or belief in the truth received upon the divine testimony has always associated with it a deep sense of sin, a distinct view of Christ, a consenting will, and a loving heart, together with a reliance on, a trusting in, or resting in Christ. It is that state of mind in which a poor sinner, conscious of his sin, flees from his guilty self to Christ his Saviour, and rolls over the burden of all his sins on him. It consists chiefly, not in the assent given to the testimony of God in his Word, but in embracing with fiducial reliance and trust the one and only Saviour whom God reveals. This trust and reliance is of the essence of faith. By faith the believer directly and immediately appropriates Christ as his own. Faith in its direct act makes Christ ours. It is not a work which God graciously accepts instead of perfect obedience, but is only the hand by which we take hold of the person and work of our Redeemer as the only ground of our salvation. Saving faith is a moral act, as it proceeds from a renewed will, and a renewed will is necessary to believing assent to the truth of God (1 Cor. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4:4). Faith, therefore, has its seat in the moral part of our nature fully as much as in the intellectual. The mind must first be enlightened by divine teaching (John 6:44; Acts 13:48; 2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 1:17, 18) before it can discern the things of the Spirit. Faith is necessary to our salvation (Mark 16:16), not because there is any merit in it, but simply because it is the sinner's taking the place assigned him by God, his falling in with what God is doing. The warrant or ground of faith is the divine testimony, not the reasonableness of what God says, but the simple fact that he says it. Faith rests immediately on, "Thus saith the Lord." But in order to this faith the veracity, sincerity, and truth of God must be owned and appreciated, together with his unchangeableness. God's word encourages and emboldens the sinner personally to transact with Christ as God's gift, to close with him, embrace him, give himself to Christ, and take Christ as his. That word comes with power, for it is the word of God who has revealed himself in his works, and especially in the cross. God is to be believed for his word's sake, but also for his name's sake. Faith in Christ secures for the believer freedom from condemnation, or justification before God; a participation in the life that is in Christ, the divine life (John 14:19; Rom. 6:4-10; Eph. 4:15,16, etc.); "peace with God" (Rom. 5:1); and sanctification (Acts 26:18; Gal. 5:6; Acts 15:9). All who thus believe in Christ will certainly be saved (John 6:37, 40; 10:27, 28; Rom. 8:1). The faith=the gospel (Acts 6:7; Rom. 1:5; Gal. 1:23; 1 Tim. 3:9; Jude 1:3).

  • The Finger
    The Finger

    Terry,

    Did you ever have faith?

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    No true Scotsman. . .

  • tooktheredpill
    tooktheredpill

    Terry:

    You commentented something very interesting to me:

    "Their "faith" has replaced individuality and what was once human, artistic and creative has died".

    That comment reminded me a conversation I had with a co-worker about 5 years ago. At that time I was still an Elder, but I was not in "JW Mode" at work. (I preferred to preach from house to house on the weekends, and no preaching at work, unless somebody asked me about religion).

    One day I was having lunch with a co-worker, and he told me: "Don't take this wrong, but you are the first JW that I know that have not lost his humanity"...!!!! That hit me hard, because I thought that all my "brothers and sisters" were approachable, and sincerily cared for other people. Why this guy was telling me that JW's have "no humanity"?? It bothered me at the moment, but stopped thinking about it.

    I unplugged from the cult about 2 years ago. Now I understand perfectly what my coworker meant. JW's are robots without any critical thinking ability. And I was one for 34 years. :(

    It's really sad. "A mind is a terrible thing to waste".

    TTRP

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    I have carefully read this topic and the really strong posts. Several times.

    Terry , Sometimes a thoughts flow out of you like the first draft of a poem--so the ideas are kind of hard to catch. You have, IMHO, a couple of topics here-- not just one. So forgive me if I'm the one who doesn't "get it".

    I agree that faith is a form of suicide. But it does not destroy our individuality.

    I agree that faitheventually takes a person beyond their understanding, their reason. But I do not agree that faith begins without reasonable evidence. It challenges our reason but invites our involvement. A little bit like conception. Strong faith grows from a cooperative endeavor between the individual and God.

    I agree that the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses steals and stunts identity. But I do not believe faith steals a person's identity.

    If a Witness has faith at first, it dies if they are fully compliant to the FDS. To engage God in a primary way is definitely prohibited. Witnesses loose their faith incrementally as each opportunity to excercise real faith in God is appropriated by the FDS. The FDS tells them what God wants.

    Soren Kierkegaard spoke much about the relationship of faith to uncertainty--and to finding one's own true self. He saw the avoidance of real faith that was fostered by Danish National Churches and the failure of people to discover their real identity. No real risk=no real faith=no real identity.

    Kiekegaard struggled with faith, he certainly was an individual. But he died outside of his church.

    Thanks for your raw thoughts.

    Maeve

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    Terry in your opening post I was enjoying what you'd written until you got to this

    IF you will yourself into destroying your only access to reality. You KILL your rational mind.

    Your rational mind demands that no contradiction exists between the real world and your thoughts. Everything must match!

    When the rational (non-contradictory) mind is abandoned---what remains?

    This leaves you with a superstitious mind. The superstitious mind embraces contradictions and will cling to any BELIEF which

    produces a feeling of wonder, awe, comfort or excitement.

    Some people call the superstitious mind SPIRITUALITY because it sounds more reverent!

    imo the rational mind is only a small "part of a part". Goethe in Faust. Whereas what you call the "superstitious mind" which you describe as producing awe, wonder, comfort, excitement and which you downgrade, is imo what imparts value to life and it does not need the "rational mind" to impart rationality as it can discriminate for itself (assuming of course that what you call the superstitious mind can even be categorised at all).

    There is emotional intelligence, aesthetic appreciation, a welcoming of the unknown etc etc. Much of this isn't even located in the mind but in the body.

    As Jehovahs witnesses we sat still at the meetings like little soldeirs focusing the mind on "spiritual food". I would suggest switching between mind and body at the meetings. If you feel bored go for a walk savour the air outside, the sunshine, the night air, spend a little time in your body

    Faith imparts life. How you define faith is up to you. Many people of faith - the apostle Paul included - demonstrated belief in God as well as a questioning of belief in God- faith has many sides to it. It can be a bottomless pit too with no sides - Jesus in the garden of gethsemene for instance

  • mindmelda
    mindmelda

    If you mean that lying and deceiving people is soul destroying, (soul meaning the inner sense of self) which is as bad as actual murder, I agree. When you murder a person's aspirations and potential, it's about as evil as murdering them literally.

    Faith is such a tricky word. I'm not against putting faith in things that are worthy of it. The trouble is, it's really up to the individual to discover what they believe is worthy of investiture of faith. The bad thing about coercive religions, organizations, people, whatever is that they take away that perogative of each one of us to find what is worthy and invest ourselves and our energy into that and TELL US what we should be doing.

    We don't need that kind of control masquerading as benevolent guidance. It stunts our intellectual, moral and emotional capacity to have that done for us. A cup already full cannot be filled. If you already are told, manipulated into believing you have ultimate truth and are putting all your faith into that one thing, you have no reason to learn anything else, or grow from that learning.

    I think in a way, people who go into cults are looking for easy answers, pat solutions because they're in a bad place and don't want to grow, learn or be motivated anymore. They get you when you're depressed, sad, angry, confused or afraid and looking for those easy answers. It's so much easier to sell the snake oil to someone who is sick than to someone who is healthy, after all.

    The scary thing is, we all get that way occasionally.

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    Faith is not be a form of suicide if God really existes. Rather it is a wise move to align ourselves with this super being and ensure our survival into heaven instead of certain death.

    Alas peoples opinion about the existence of a God varies, mainly because we are told this silent, slippery super being is totally invisible. The idea of God is one thing. Coming to a conclusion that God exists and then seeking to appease God, is a declaration of acceptance. To the believer, God has become a reality not just a concept.

    Once this happens, rationality has been rejected and replace with faith. I think that Terry uses the extreme word 'suicide' to make a point. Faith is perhaps just an impairment to our rational process which paves the way for acceptance of other concepts that no require rationality.

    Ultimately it is a path that robs us of the ability to make useful decisions in the real world - unless there is a God, in which case the believer has gambled an won. Heads or tails - you choose!

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