Jesus disses corporation-led religion??

not a captive

We were told that the right corporate "doctrine" makes the right group activity. But words attributed to Jesus at Matthew 7 make me wonder if Jesus wasn't discouraging that.

A small sample--

NIV Bible translates Matthew 7: 22-27: "'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? ' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.'

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on a rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against his house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a crash."

Plural or singular, does it matter to you? What do other translations say?

WTWizard

I am not surprised. The witlesses prophesy in Jesus' name. The witlesses' Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger puts itself in place of Jesus. They expel demons in Jesus' name, namely by telling the members to throw away anything that has any sentimental value. They do many [dead] works in Jesus' name, specifically working the same damn streets repeatedly when the territory should be declared dead. Which is nothing more than a waste of time.

BurnTheShips

We were told that the right corporate "doctrine" makes the right group activity. But words attributed to Jesus at Matthew 7 make me wonder if Jesus wasn't discouraging that.

That's a big stretch, especially when we take into account other passages in the same Gospel of Matthew that seem to be doing the exact opposite.

BTS

not a captive

Where are they?

BurnTheShips

Matthew 16:13-20

End of Matthew 28:16-20 (great commission)

These suggest the establishment of a corporate (body). The goings on in Acts of the Apostles pretty much confirms it.

BTS

not a captive

Thanks BTS,

If the word "church" or"congregation" did not have patterned definition for us, we might not assume that either of these scriptures is talking about building a corporation of "faith" on the earth. We might have understood Jesus' word ekklesia -called out -do describe a people who recognized Him as the Christ the son of the living God. Not a religious corporation but truly the Body of Christ.

When my conscience wouldn't let me nod my head at certain things, the Brotherhood turned into Corporation and told me to toe the line. I was struggling to understand what happens to believers who for conscience sake were cut off. I read the Bible to see if I was still a legitimate Christian.

Matthew 24:28 is a scripture that the Society never got to work for them. Looking under the word "eagle" in their Insight books the FDS are bewildered by this passage. But in it's larger context, to verse 28, the passage makes sense.

There is the Body of Christ drawn from the four winds but there is also another body; it is a dead one. The NIV has it:"Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."

There is live faith and there is dead religion.

What specific parts of Acts were you thinking of that makes you think that the primitive Christians were creating a corporation of faith rather than a support network?

BurnTheShips

What specific parts of Acts were you thinking of that makes you think that the primitive Christians were creating a corporation of faith rather than a support network?

It was a support network, with a formal structure and governance. Paul referred to "ekklesia" dozens of times and himself directed and guided it. When he did so, he spoke with authority. We also see a continuity in Apostolic leadership after Jesus' ascension. We see division-causing matters referred to an apostolic council for resolution in Acts 15. The decision of this ecclesiastical body was treated as authoritative. The Body of Christ was not something nebulous and invisible in the 1st C. It was a visible, identifiable body with a system of governance. This seems undeniable to me.

BTS

not a captive

Is it likely that early Christians who had no written catechism would be bound by more than the moral authority of the Apostles? Their genuine primacy would give their teaching the merit it deserved.

The quality of personal responsibility is undone if the authority was not conceded to them rather than being demanded by them. I have found no way to reconcile this personal responsibility Jesus gave his "lowest ranking" followers with the obligations official religious bodies demanded later

It may not be incidental that this first example of a meeting of elders and apostles resulted in loosing rather than binding new laws on the brotherhood

Genuinely dedicated followers always insure the healthiest body of Christ. The surest way to destroy it is by vesting the operation of the spirit in men instead of Christ. Mt.23:8-11 . In Galatians Paul's eloquent pleas to come out from under law and operate in faith are clear: "for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing." And, for me, Paul's word's at chapter 31-14 make the case completely. He appeals to the story of the untutored Abraham, man of primitive faith. Guided, not by Christ and not holy spirit but by a very rudimentary faith. "The righteous will live by faith. The law is not based on faith: on the contrary..."

We know what happens when holy spirit is the monopoly of a Governing Body. They become law makers for the rest of us. What faith we take into such a religious structure is sucked away.

Do you think a tight corporation is really how holy spirit is going to keep the Body of Christ together?

PSacramento

People tend to feel "comfort" in being supported by others in anything, even more so religion.

Jesus was NOT a fan of organized religion so it's pretty hard to say that he told his followers to become one, but people fall back into old habits and orgnaized religion is the oldest habit inthe book.

The jews that were converted had it in "their blood" to be organized, since that is what they were before conversion and even the gentiles had "organized worship" too.

It' just human nature to have a support structure.

Do we need it ?

No.

Does it help the vast majority?

Yes.

Does it get a life of it's own and start a mess?

Absofreakinglutley !

BurnTheShips

You make interesting observations, not a captive, but the reality is that within a short time after the death of Jesus we find clear evidence of a formal structure within the Christian community with the Apostles at the head. These are the same Apostles that were granted authority to loose and bind by the power of the holy spirit.

#1 He chose humans to carry out his work. At Matthew 16:18, Jesus selected Peter as the first among the Apostles:

"You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church." (Matthew 16: 18)

When you build, not a captive, you are creating a structure.

#2 He gave the Apostles authority to carry out his work:

"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven."(Matthew 16:19; 18:18)

"Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained."(John 20:23)

#3 Jesus gave Peter and the Apostles a clear idea as to what work they would do.

He told them to celebrate the last supper in his memory. (Luke 22:19 He told them to make disciples of all the nations. (Matthew 28:19) He told them to proclaim the Gospel to every person in the world. (Mark 16:15)

#4 The Church, as founded by Jesus, was hierarchical. At Acts 15, we see how the Apostles and elders came together to decide upon a matter regarding the new Gentile believers. Their decision was binding on the Church as a whole. In Paul's letters, we see clear instructions regarding appointment to positions of authority in individual churches (Presbyteros and Diaconos). Paul himself, along with the rest of the Apostles that wrote letters, spoke with authority--an authority vested in their Apostolic office. This is irrefutable.

Jesus founded a Church to teach His people and proclaim the Gospel. Through the Holy Spirit, he helped the Apostles create an organizational structure for the Church. It is clear that it was Jesus' intention to do so, and it is clear that the Apostles carried out his intentions after his rising.

....if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.....(1 Tim 3:15)

BTS

Jesus disses corporation-led religion??

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