Jesus disses corporation-led religion??

by not a captive 76 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  BurnTheShips

  Jesus was NOT a fan of organized religion

  Jesus never once spoke against the Jewish religion. He never once spoke against the Law. He never once spoke against the institutions of the Jewish religion, including the Temple, and the Priesthood.

  In fact, read all the prophets, not one of them did so either. If anything, all of them spoke to reform the religious institutions (not abandon them), to purge them of bad influences, and to return them to holiness.

  Jesus wasn't against the organized religion of his day. That said, he himself, as the Son, was a higher authority, yet even He was observant and faithful. What Jesus was against was hypocrisy, abuse, and falsehood.

  BTS
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  It should be noted that no Christian religion looks to the gospels for the structure of their particular church for the most part. It's all between Acts and Revelation.

  It is my opinion that Jesus was against the group think mentality that led to the putting religious power into the hands of a few thanks to the oral traditions. Remember, Jesus said in Matt in the Sermon on the Mount "You heard it was said...". That was the oral law of the Pharisees.

  Jesus wanted his disciples to feel first, to love, AND think. If people got together as a result of being a disciple of Christ (according to my reading of the gospels) was never the point.

  Now Paul and the Apostles on the other hand, it could be argued, had a very deep interest in the control that the establishing of the church would provide. And lets face it, Paul was not a laid back dude. He was a control freak. (a mysoginistic control freak)
• 

  PSacramento

  BTS, Jeremiah spoke against the scribes, Jesus chastised the Pharisees over and over and the scribes.

  I din't say Jesus was AGIANST organized religion, I said he was NOT a fan and the world we live in right now and history has taught us WHY he wasn't.

  Organizations take on a life of their own and become the worse possible thing for faith, a determint to faith even.

  The Book, Question of Conscience by Charles Davis gives an inside look of this issue in the RCC.

  Organized religion tries to revoke personal freedom and control our personal relationship with God.

  The degree to which they succeed depends on the person, this is true, but the most horrific events in Christanity can be "blamed" on its Organization.
• 

  PSacramento

  Now Paul and the Apostles on the other hand, it could be argued, had a very deep interest in the control that the establishing of the church would provide. And lets face it, Paul was not a laid back dude. He was a control freak. (a mysoginistic control freak)

  I think that one can easily get that view if we take the minority of Paul's posts in which his "pharisees" side comes out more than it should.

  But as a whole, Paul preached Love, compassion, Faith, hope, Grace, self sufficiency and more, all good attributes to have.

  The apostles were all proponents of being guided by the HS and not by man, it seems that the generations that followed them tended to be more controlling, probably because they felt intimidated by difference of opinion.
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  not a captive

  Holy Spirit has no part of abelievers life if it is meted out to only a few and subject to a 2/3 vote.

  Obviously Jesus cast his vote against the majority in his religion.

  Jesus did die a faithful man, he died a Jew. He said salvation was of/originated with the Jew but he also told Pilate "For this reason I was born and came into the world: to bear witness to the Truth."

  Just because wolves have been tearing up the household of God for centuries doesn't mean we have to sew them sheep's costumes today.

  Structures that do any more than exercise moral authority and create that lively interchange without racking the truth out of the faithful do fulfill the role of being fellow workers for the joy of others.

  There is no way Jesus would promote the construction of a religious corporation. They have no individual soul. they have no collective soul as a corporation.

  The Body of Christ is far more spiritual but it is not ethereal.

  The power of the loosely structured believers in Acts was through the visible power of Holy Spirit.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  BTS, Jeremiah spoke against the scribes, Jesus chastised the Pharisees over and over and the scribes.

  He spoke against particular individuals and practices, PSAC. Not against the religion itself. God appointed Jeremiah to confront Judah and Jerusalem for the worship of idols and other violations of the covenant described in Deuteronomy. He never spoke against the covenant. He spoke about the scribes, priests, and kings violating the covenant. This is not the same as speaking against the covenant.

  Organized religion tries to revoke personal freedom and control our personal relationship with God.

  My religion does not do this to me.

  The degree to which they succeed depends on the person, this is true, but the most horrific events in Christanity can be "blamed" on its Organization.

  They can be blamed on false teachers, wolves among the sheep. Paul himself new these would come after their passing. This circumstance is no different than ancient Israel. We see that they had evil priests, and evil kings. Yet the institutions themselves were considered to be founded by the God of Israel. Even David would not raise his hand up against the bad king Saul, because of his anointed office.

  The apostles were all proponents of being guided by the HS and not by man, it seems that the generations that followed them tended to be more controlling, probably because they felt intimidated by difference of opinion.

  The Apostles all wrote and spoke against false teachings. These, are as you might call them "differences of opinion." Some misunderstood Paul's writings for example, and garnered a reproach from Peter. The Apostles founded an organization and this is what they were commanded to do by the spirit.

  Have you read the Apostolic Fathers? This collection was written by those that were appointed by the Apostles, and succeeded them after their passing. It will give you more insight about how the early Church existed.

  And I declare to you that you are Peter, and that upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the might of Hades shall not triumph over it.

  And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

  BTS
• 

  PSacramento

  BTS, Yes I read the apostolic Fathers and it seems that even there, the beginnings of the very issue that plague modern day religious organizations were present.

  The whole, "obey the bishop as one would Christ" is wrong, Men are falliable and giving them "absolut" authority gives us the inquisition.

  Again, religion being organized is NOT a bad thing, though it can easily become one, the main problem and this was Jesus issues with it, is when the organization becomes greater than the religion, greater than the people.

  We see this with the RCC and with the WT as examples.
• 

  PSacramento

  Jesus did die a faithful man, he died a Jew. He said salvation was of/originated with the Jew but he also told Pilate "For this reason I was born and came into the world: to bear witness to the Truth."

  Yes salvation came of the Jews, Jesus was born jewish and Jesus IS Salvation.

  There is no way Jesus would promote the construction of a religious corporation. They have no individual soul. they have no collective soul as a corporation.

  The Body of Christ is far more spiritual but it is not ethereal.

  The power of the loosely structured believers in Acts was through the visible power of Holy Spirit.

  I agree, Jesus said the Kingdoem of God is within US, He said that He and his father would "live in us and us in them" and that it was not a building or a group, WE are the chruch of God, each and every one of US as INDIVIDUALS.

  As he said, where ever 2 or more gather, I am there, but also notice that he said when we pray to do so privatley and not for show.

  There is no contridiction, Jesus was showing us our Goal of a personal relationship with God, via Him and not via any organization or group or body.

  Some people need to fellowship of other like minded people and that is great, others don't, the issue isn't that, it isn't fellowship, it is when an organization becomes "God" and decides and rules in Jesus' name.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  PSAC, I appreciate your perspective. However, none of this addresses the simple fact that Jesus founded a visible, universal church. It is this simple fact that I am trying to underscore. He founded a body that had a clear formal structure under the guidance of the Apostles--to whom he gave clear and explicit authority to do so.

  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

  BTS
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  I see that in this thread, the bible is used as a reliable and accurate reference book that can be quoted from to set matters straight. It tells us who said what, who appointed who, and how to be a Christian.

  On other threads, the same people that place such trust in the accuracy of the Bible, in this thread, portray it in a very different light. When versus are quoted that are inconvenient, the Bible suddenly becomes a metaphor; the ramblings of ancient men doing their best to explain their take on things. They were not inspired by God but inspired themselves. And so on...

  Incredulity is expressed that non christian can be so uniformed as to think that the Bible is the hand-book for Christians. God is in our hearts and Jesus is the Word. God's spirit is all we need and whatever the Bible says is unimportant. If a page offends you pluck it out.

  I could quote some of the most embarrassing disclaimers made but, it would be less embarrassing if you look back through your previous attempts to give Christianity legitimacy and cringe in private. Is it any wonder that so many people on this forum no longer have a clue what Christians believe or stand for?