Tell it isaac
WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?
by Dogpatch 270 Replies latest jw friends
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isaacaustin
Consfearacy said:
The reason I have a problem labeling Charles Taze Russel a false prophet is because while he and the early Bible students did say some things I disagree with, the “Millennial Dawners” as they refered to themselves back then, also said things I do agree with. They made some statements about medical science and the use of vaccines that were quite inaccurate.
My reply: You claim CTR is not a false prophet because he said some things you do agree with? Do you have anything more than a 3rd grade education? You may, but possess the reasoning skills of less than that.
The rest of your post is just an endless babble of gibberish that says nothing of any substance and is a waste of time even replying to.
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Essan
Consfearacy said: "The reason I have a problem labeling Charles Taze Russel a false prophet is because while he and the early Bible students did say some things I disagree with, the “Millennial Dawners” as they refered to themselves back then, also said things I do agree with."
Oh OK, well, you use your own preferred definition of "false Prophets" and we'll use the Bible's. I'm sure your self-serving judgement on this matter is more relevant than God's anyway. You're ignoring the Bible and God's view on this as explicitly laid out in the Scriptures.
You said: You can choose to label Charles Taze Russel a false prophet because of a misunderstanding.
He's not a false prophet for a 'misunderstanding'. He's a false prophet for repeatedly preaching and teaching false predictions, as "fact" while claiming authority as "God's Mouthpiece". That's very, very different. That you choose to ignore this because you agree with some of the things he said is pretty shocking.
And you're wrong about the Society stopping predicting dates after 1925, It didn't stop until 2000 and hasn't really stopped even now.
What you are doing is resisting the Bible's clear standard because you happen to agree with some of the Society's early teachings. What you should be doing is reexamining those teachings very carefully because of being alerted to the fact that their source was, scriptural speaking, a 'false prophet'. You are also forgetting that, even if some of those teachings may be correct, "Satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light". The false prophet's Jesus spoke of and condemned and warned us to "watch out for" were Christians, and no doubt there was much they said that was correct, or seemed so, that is why they are described as having "sheep's coverings' - they appear to be sheep. Yet Jesus says 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' These ones were even, apparently, on the lookout for Jesus return! (Matt 24:23-27) Their lies are hidden among apparent truths.
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Consfearacy
"My reply: You claim CTR is not a false prophet because he said some things you do agree with? Do you have anything more than a 3rd grade education? You may, but possess the reasoning skills of less than that.
The rest of your post is just an endless babble of gibberish that says nothing of any substance and is a waste of time even replying to."
I won't judge you personally because you never know, you could be on house arrest.
You can at least chalk up an organization so some comparisons can made. Google: Religions of Today's World for a fair assessment.
So far you can speak with impunity because you choose not to identify yourself with any organization whose track record can be scrutinized. That's commonly the position of people who oppose Jehovah's Witnesses. Conceal all the skeletons hiding in your closet while condemning others.
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Consfearacy
Essan said;
'He's not a false prophet for a 'misunderstanding'. He's a false prophet for repeatedly preaching and teaching false predictions, as "fact" while claiming authority as "God's Mouthpiece". That's very, very different. That you choose to ignore this because you agree with some of the things he said is pretty shocking.
And you're wrong about the Society stopping predicting dates after 1925, It didn't stop until 2000 and hasn't really stopped even now.
What you are doing is resisting the Bible's clear standard because you happen to agree with some of the Society's early teachings. What you should be doing is reexamining those teachings very carefully because of being alerted to the fact that their source was, scriptural speaking, a 'false prophet'. You are also forgetting that, even if some of those teachings may be correct, "Satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light". The false prophet's Jesus spoke of and condemned and warned us to "watch out for" were Christians, and no doubt there was much they said that was correct, or seemed so, that is why they are described as having "sheep's coverings' - they appear to be sheep. Yet Jesus says 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' These ones were even, apparently, on the lookout for Jesus return! (Matt 24:23-27) Their lies are hidden among apparent truths."
Whatever you believe is Gospel truth should result in an organizing principle with like minded individuals in an appropriate setting, not just the internet. If Jehovah's Witnesses are counterfeit Christians than common sense would denote to unite with others that share your thinking. Demonizing others as a reason for inactivity doesn't mean anything.
Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself. James 2:17
Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. For the disclosure was made to me about you, my brothers, by those of [the house of] Chlo′e, that dissensions exist among you. 1 Corinthians 1:10-11
Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water. Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near. Hebrews 10:19-25
I have all of the literature published by Jehovah's Witnesses. You should give me an example of what it is your are referring to.
Prior to 1925 it was pointed out that if 70 full Jubilees were calculated from what was understood to be the date when Israel entered the Promised Land (instead of starting after the last typical Jubilee before the Babylonian exile and then counting to the beginning of the Jubilee year at the end of the 50th cycle), this could point to the year 1925.
After the mistaken viewpoint, what should have been done? Should they have been gutted out and replaced? Was the error deliberate? The error wasn't repeated. I haven't observed any speculation about this system coming to a close after what was stated prior to 1925 in their literature. There was no official statement from the faithful and discreet slave about 1975. Their official statement was conversely the opposite of anything definite and was to clear up the hearsay about 1975.
Aside from your obvious disagreement about the early Bible students, looking to a date for their heavenly reward, what else do you disagree with?
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Essan
Consfearacy said: Whatever you believe is Gospel truth should result in an organizing principle with like minded individuals in an appropriate setting, not just the internet. If Jehovah's Witnesses are counterfeit Christians than common sense would denote to unite with others that share your thinking. Demonizing others as a reason for inactivity doesn't mean anything.
That's both inaccurate and irrelevant. You are using the usual JW defense of switching the topic. You don't know us or what we do, who else we associate with and in what "setting" or if we are "inactive" or not as Christians. And it's not relevant to this discussion. We're talking about the Society. The Bible condemns the Society as a "False Prophet" as do their own publications. Nothing is going to change that , including lashing out at others or trying to switch the focus to them or other organizations.
You said: I have all of the literature published by Jehovah's Witnesses. You should give me an example of what it is your are referring to.
You need to do so much more research. Although, by the way you blithely ignore clear scriptures regarding the identification of a 'False Prophet" you don't seem inclined, as yet, to allow yourself to see the full error of the Society and so I'm not sure such research would do you much good. It's all there with references, on the net, for those who are willing to find it.
After 1925 and a catalogue of embarrassing predictive disasters and false teachings about dates, all since disavowed, (or in the case of 1914 and 1919, given different meanings) - including those for 1798, 1799, 1829, 1844, 1846, 1873, 1874, 1875, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1919, 1920 - the Society finally wised up a little, not because they realized that their former course was presumptuous, destructive and Scripturally 'damning', (except when it comes to condemning others: Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 23) but because they were tired of looking like fools and of their stumbled membership dropping dramatically after every failed prediction. So, they became more sneaky about how they pushed their dates, but push them they did, with varying degrees of vigor and implication, including for 1931, 1932, 1941, 1951, 1954, 1975 - you really need to do a lot more research on 1975 including listening to the audio of Talks at District Assemblies given regarding 1975 which can be found online: "Don't wait until 1975, the door will be shut by then!" - District Overseer Brother Charles Sunutko 1967 - 1984, 1986, 1994, and 2000 (ministry to be completed "in our 20th century", text changed in bound volume; WT 10/15 1980 p31 )
http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/1975_-_sermon.html
They began behaving like lawyers regarding their dates after 1925. They did everything they could to push their dates but were finally aware of leaving themselves the technicality of pretending that they 'didn't say for sure', while at the same time creating absolute hysteria over certain dates with their words (as in 1975), praising those who gave up and sold everything to do ask much ministry as possible in the few "remaining months before Armageddon" (1941) and saying in 75 that Armageddon may not come immediately, but soon after, and that the time difference would likely be "months, not years". If you do enough research and are honest with yourself, you'll see how wrong it was. The worst of their "false prophesies" regarding dates were prior to 1925, but they didn't stop after 1925.
You said: Aside from your obvious disagreement about the early Bible students, looking to a date for their heavenly reward, what else do you disagree with?
You see, you spin things so deceptively! I don't disagree with Bible Students 'looking', I disagree with the Society and it's leaders elevating themselves as "God's Mouthpiece" and "The Lords Special Servant" and insisting as "indisputable fact" and as of "Divine Origin" their false date predictions, which all JW's were obliged to accept! That's not "looking"! The Bible condemns it as "false prophesy"! I don't really blame the ordinary Bible Students, except for being gullible and spiritually immature, I blame their leaders of the WTBTS, the 'Organization'.
As for my disagreements with WTBTS doctrine generally - well, to quote, "If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."
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Consfearacy
Essan wrote: "After 1925 and a catalogue of embarrassing predictive disasters and false teachings about dates, all since disavowed, (or in the case of 1914 and 1919, given different meanings) - including those for 1798, 1799, 1829, 1844, 1846, 1873, 1874, 1875, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1919, 1920 - the Society finally wised up a little, not because they realized that their former course was presumptuous, destructive and Scripturally 'damning', but because they were tired of looking like fools and of their stumbled membership dropping dramatically after every failed prediction. So, they became more sneaky about how they pushed their dates, but push them they did, with varying degrees of vigor and implication, including for 1931, 1932, 1941, 1951, 1954, 1975 (you really need to do a lot more research on 1975 including listening to the audio of Talks at District Assemblies given regarding 1975 which can be found online "Don't wait until 1975, the door will be shut by then!") 1984, 1986, 1994, and 2000 - ministry to be completed "in our 20th century", text changed in bound volume); WT 10/15 1980 p31 )
I didn't switch the subject or make a deterrent, I made a valid point. Nor did I lash out. Someone initiated a derogatory statement to me personally and I responded to it. The angle you are using doesn't change what the Bible teaches or anything about the impending future. Does the research the early Bible students conducted into Bible chronology and shared with others change the following two scriptures for example?"
http://bible.cc/matthew/5-5.htm
http://bible.cc/psalms/37-29.htm
“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5
The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it. Psalm 37:29
Can these specific Bible passages be interpreted to mean something other than what is stated in crystal clear speech?Not all of the dates you listed were mistaken by any means. Unless you're over 90 you were not around prior to 1920 so you don't know why the early Bible students pursued a certain course of action aside from what is in their literature. What's your objective in trying to influence others by highlighting dates aquired from Bible and secular chronology and then referencing information you believe are subliminal messages or what someone stated at a district assembly?
Upon one of Jehovah's Witnesses or even all of them being informed of your sentiment, should they all disband and reorganize under a different name? Or better yet, abandon Jehovah and stop teaching others about what the future holds? In a quest for answers, the fact that the early Bible students were guided by sound principles and maintained high standards of evidence in their endeavors is revealed by their earliest literature. If you do find a problem in a study aid to Bible understanding you believe is a sin, there's no reason to incriminate others if they demonstrate godly repentance.
There's many unrepentant persons in society. The Bible clearly outlines works that befit repentance. The men and women you're indicting displayed works that befit repentance up to the end of their earthly course. If they did make a mistake, they were repentant. Going off on a kamikaze course of indicting others who display works that befit repentance is a common but a rather cheap defense mechanism from persons that are unrepentant.
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miseryloveselders
Upon one of Jehovah's Witnesses or even all of them being informed of your sentiment, should they all disband and reorganize under a different name? Or better yet, abandon Jehovah and stop teaching others about what the future holds? In a quest for answers, the fact that the early Bible students were guided by sound principles and maintained high standards of evidence in their endeavors is revealed by their earliest literature. If you do find a problem in a study aid to Bible understanding you believe is a sin, there's no reason to incriminate others if they demonstrate godly repentance.
There's many unrepentant persons in society. The Bible clearly outlines works that befit repentance. The men and women you're indicting displayed works that befit repentance up to the end of their earthly course. If they did make a mistake, they were repentant. Going off on a kamikaze course of indicting others who display works that befit repentance is a common but a rather cheap defense mechanism from persons that are unrepentant.
You're still avoiding the point Consfearacy. Essan does a find job articulating his points and doesn't need any assistance from anyone on here. However I personally find it frustrating that you purposely avoided dealing with Essan's primary concerns with this organization. That being the WT promotes themselves as being the exclusive sole channel for communication and reconciliation with God. You do the same thing other WT apologists do on here, with maybe the exception of Renaia and to a lesser extent her new alias Debator. At first I was hoping you missed what Essan was relaying to you. Then I realized, you didn't miss it, you purposely avoided it. I'm guessing your reasons are you're either aware that Essan's argument has you cornered, or you're really that delusional and goat headed to see the point. Nobody has a problem with anyone on this planet being zealous for truth, or having a emotional stake in how prophecy is to be interpreted for our times. Heck, I was curious as to what team Lebron was going to go to, but I didn't threaten anybody for not believing as I did that he was going to the Bulls. The problem is when those zealous ones, aka the Celebrated WT Scholars and Clergy aka the Governing Body, promote themselves as God's exclusive sole channel for dispensing truth, or one might label it current truth. Then, when their truthis replaced with a newer truth, and their followers are stumbled, they blame the followers. Not only do they blame the followers, but they emotionally blackmail their followers with the devestating consequences of shunning, otherwise known as disfellowshipping. Why punish the followers? Because they had the audacity to question whether their Clergy and Scholars should be held to the same standerd that the GB and WT use to label all other religions as false, aka Babylon the Great. "Get out of her my people!"
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wiser
Do the JWs believe lying is a sin? It puzzles me that they proclaim their faith to be the only truth, and still refuse to acknowledge the false preditions.
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Essan
Consfearacy, what is silly about this discussion is that, not only do your arguments consistently disregard the Bible's statements about this matter but they also directly contradict the Society's own statements on these matters, as other posters have pointed out to you. According to both the Bible and the Society, a "False Prophet" who also says some (possibly) true things, or is otherwise a nice guy, is still a "False Prophet", and is to be avoided by true Christians.
You need to stick to the topic. If you want to talk about other aspects of doctrine which - you think - will somehow stop the "leaven" of repeated False Prophesy from fermenting the "whole lump" then create a thread about those doctrines, but they are not relevant here. I'm not going to talk about the Society's 'Paradise Earth' Doctrine in a thread about "False Prophesy", because it's off topic and doesn't excuse it. Actually, the WTBTS's 'Paradise Earth' version of the 'Good News' is Scripturally wrong, and is easily demonstrated to be wrong, and if you create a thread about it I'll explain why. But not here. And even if it were right, it doesn't change anything with regard to this topic.
Your comment that not all the dates I listed were wrong "by any means" is not really honest - if you are a JW (you sound as if you might be a Bible Student?) - as only about 3 survive out of the huge list I gave, and they DO NOT have the same significance for JW's now as they did back then. Their meaning has been completely changed.
The reason for highlighting the "false prophesying" of the WTBTS is because most JW's are unaware of it, because the Society today hides it's history and lies about what happened back then and about what they actually preached, the result of which is that JW's today imagine that 1914 is some kind of badge of honour and proof of their religion's rightness, when in fact, 1914 was probably their religions greatest error and embarrassment. Most JW's know nothing of this, because they have been lied to. That's why we discuss it. What they should do about it is up to them, but it's only right they have all the facts and face their significance in light of the Scriptures. The Society has not 'repented' of their false prophesying because it is STILL lying about it's past! It is covering up it's sin - the opposite of repentance!
The individual Bible Students and JW's who naively trusted the Society were gullible and deceived. I was one of them at one time. This was made possible because they were manipulated into 'trusting in men' and an 'Organization' far too deeply, despite Scriptural warning about this. This is what they need to 'repent' of.