Draw your own conclusions...
Everybody does :)
Do you believe the "Conscious Class" will be saved? (CHRISTIANS ONLY)
by brotherdan 98 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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brotherdan
I still have not seen a post about a defense about John 2:19. There was a lame attempt from thinkaboutit to offer a statement from quote "some Christian denomonation" about Jesus not meaning what he said.
I have to agree with Chalam that there are 3 things that are SPECIFICALLY said in the sriptures. Jesus raised his body (John 2:19) The Father raised Jesus body (Acts 17:31) and the Holy Spirit raising Jesus body (Romans 8:11)
And yet, I am called an "idiot" by thinkaboutit? Am I an idiot for taking the Bible for what it says? Or am I an idiot for not accepting someones gymanastic reasoning that Jesus did not mean that he raised his own body, and that the Father really DID raise Jesus body, but the Holy Spirit only raised his body in the sense that the Father raised it? How am I to be considered an idiot?
Thinkaboutit: If I am an idiot due to a specific scripture, then show me that scripture and I will admit that I am an idiot. I have been an idiot for 30 years. I believed what the WT said. I'm tired of being an "idiot". So please show me where the scriptures tell me I'm wrong. Don't just show me what some strange "Christian denomination" has said in it's magazine in interpreting John 2:19.
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Think About It
Because the scriptures say
- God raised Jesus from the dead
- Jesus raised Himself from the dead
- The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead
Draw your own conclusions...
Yet after the resurrection only one of the three (Jesus) is sat in a submissive position at the right hand of God and the The Holy Spirit is not even mentioned.
Think About It
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peacedog
Yet after the resurrection only one of the three (Jesus) is sat in a submissive position at the right hand of God
And that has what to do with the nature of Jesus? Oh, that's right. Nothing. Nothing at all...
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Chalam
Think About It The Holy Spirit is not even mentioned.
Romans 8:9-11 (New International Version)
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
1 Peter 3:18 (New International Version)
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit
Maybe you would care to tell us what spirit is mentioned then?
Blessings,
Stephen
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wannabefree
My opinion ... like it or not ... take it or leave it ...
Don't split hairs. Isn't that what the Watchtower does? Is Jesus God? Some verses would lead me to think he could be others that he can't be. His relationship with the Father is clearly unique, one we perhaps can't fully grasp. His origin is divine (John 1:1). But to say that the Bible is clear I think would be insisting on something that may not be knowable as a certainty without part of the decision being based on faith. (of course it is all based on faith, I mean considering the Bible as fact, filling in the rest with faith)
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brotherdan
Thinkaboutit: It seems that you are viewing the trinity as the Watchtower does. Whether you believe in the trinity or not, the trinity doctrine is NOT what the WT says it is.
The Trinity is the claim that:
1. There are 3 people that make up "God"
2. They all exist in God's form
3. They are united in essence and equality
What is interesting is that even the false religious pharisees knew what Jesus claimed. He claimed to be equal to God. Read John 5:18.
The discussion of the Trinity should be discussed in a different post. And I concur that there is not a specific scripture that blatently says "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God." However, there are several scriptures that show that each WERE spoken of as being God.
So while I will not be dogmatic on it, to deny that these scriptures exist is to deny the authority of scripture and to show an inability to interpret scripture correctly according to the rules of hermeneutics.
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brotherdan
AMEN to wannabefree!!!
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Essan
"Yet after the resurrection only one of the three (Jesus) is sat in a submissive position at the right hand of God and the The Holy Spirit is not even mentioned."
That's the problem with typical JW reasoning, it fails to account for and harmonize all verses. You fail to really "think about it". You were shown and apparently accept that the Scriptures DO say that:
God raises Jesus.
Jesus raised Jesus.
Spirit raised Jesus.
You IGNORE that, switch issues, and simply say "Oh but he sits in a lower position at God's right hand", as if that somehow negates what has just been shown. It absolutely doesn't. You still have to account for it, and can't! And it's funny, you say this as if it "proves" the Trinity wrong, and yet Trinitarians have no problems reconciling these verses, they have no problem with Jesus being at God's right hand or the spirit not being mentioned at that point, it doesn't actually threaten their doctrinal understanding, it harmonizes with it.
That's what gets me with JW reasoning, they don't even have a good grasp of the doctrines they think they're refuting - when they actually attack 'strawmen' - and they just IGNORE Scriptures which undermine their doctrine rather than harmonizing them. The Trinitarians do an INFINITELY better job or harmonizing the Scriptures - and I say that as someone who isn't even a Trinitarian.
As a former JW I'm frequently deeply embarrassed by JW's lack of knowledge regarding the doctrines of others and their biased, clumsy and totally inefficient attempts to harmonize Scripture. That they are often so brash and arrogant while displaying such ignorance is also pretty mortifying.
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Chalam
wannabefree The issue of Jesus being God, rather than "a god" might seem like splitting hairs but in fact the answers are eternally and infinitely different.
Blessings,
Stephen