Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies. (page 11)

peacedog

brotherdan, by my count you now have 1914 pretend points.

I give eggnog 666.

Essan

OK, OK, What about 144,000 points?

Everyone else 0

Brotherdan 144,000

We'll even let you pretend they're literal

peacedog

eggnog

What Russell actually stated was that "the full end of the times of the Gentiles ... will be reached in AD: 1914" after which the rule of imperfect men would begin to disintegrate.

A lie. Or an "untruth" if that sits better with your conscience. Which I doubt.

Russell NEVER said that after 1914 the rule of imperfect men would begin to disintegrate. You refer to a quote from a later (post-1914) edition of The Time is at Hand which was published after Russell's death. This has been pointed out several times now.

What Russell said was that 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men". Easily verifiable in a pre-1914 edition of The Time is at Hand.....

Question: Did Russell make a prediction?

Answer: Yes!

(Eggnog's answer: Absolutely not!)

Question: What did Russell predict?

Answer: Russell predicted that 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men." (The Time is at Hand, pre-1914 editions, p.76-77)

(Eggnog's answer: Absolutely nothing!)

Question: Was Russell correct in his prediction?

Answer: Not even close!

(Eggnog's answer: Yes! I mean no.. I mean yes!)

He didn't predict that 1914 would be the end of the Gospel age, which would culminate in Armageddon, followed by the beginning of the Millennial age and Christ's rule, did he?

Let's try this. If Russell did NOT believe that 1914 would be the "beginning of...Christ's rule" as you posit, then who did he believe would be ruling post-1914? Clearly, he did not believe it would be "imperfect men", since he predicted that 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men." So who did Russell believe would be ruling post-1914?

peacedog

And now that I've read eggnog's post I'm taking back his 666 points...

yourmomma

this is the best thread ever. it takes the cake, i never in my wildest dreams would think a JW would deny Russel predicted Jesus coming in 1914. Usually the JW will argue that his prediction doesnt make him a false prophet and it was just a "mistake'. But this is a whole nother level of insanity. i never thought i would see someone make thirdwitness look halfway sane.

Essan

Yep, it's pretty shocking Yourmomma.

That's why I created a thread about it. It's ridiculous that we should even need to have this conversation, never mind six pages of it, and DJ is still insisting he's right and even demanding apologies for disagreeing with him. Insane.

And it's actually worse than that - not only is DJ denying Russell predicted Christ's coming for 1914, he denied that Russell predicted anything for 1914, and has yet to retract that claim!

We are through the looking glass here people. Welcome to the bizarre extremes of hardcore Watchtowersim.

Essan

DJ Eggnog said: "[Russell] didn't predict that 1914 would be the end of the Gospel age, which would culminate in Armageddon, followed by the beginning of the Millennial age and Christ's rule, did he?"

But the Watchtower said:

""The final overthrow of present governments... will be followed by seven years of socialism and anarchy, to end with 1914 by the establishment of Christ's Millennial government" - Watchtower Reprints August 15th 1892. p239.

"...the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, October 1914" - Watchtower Reprints July 1st 1899 p 172.

"October, 1914 A.D. By that time the heavenly Kingdom will be in power and the ancient worthies - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and all the holy prophets - will be resurrected and will constitute the earthly representatives of the spiritual and invisible Kingdom of Christ" - Watchtower Reprints Oct. 1st 1903 p 373.

"Our Lord's presence, as shown in MILLENNIAL DAWN, VOL II, dates from October, 1874... the Kingdom will be fully established, or "set up", by October, A.D. 1914, as already pointed out" - Watchtower Reprints 1st August 1904 p 229.

Now, bear in mind four things:

1. These quotes of Russell's come from the Watchtower, not the disputed text of "The Time is At Hand".

2. They explicitly predict the Millennial rule and Millennial age will begin in 1914, which DJ claims above Russell never taught.

3. They explicitly refer to the "final overthrow" of the worlds governments by the Kingdom - what is that if not the end of Armageddon?

4. Most revealingly, DJeggnog has already seen these quotes, because I posted them before he said what is quoted above, so he is now ignoring the clear words of Russell in the Watchtower and his words in "The Time is At Hand".

Essan

Djeggnog said, as quoted in the last post " [Russell] didn't predict that 1914 would be the end of the Gospel age."

Really? Let's see.

"There was a sense in which the Jewish Age ended at the cross and another sense in which it was extended 37 years. So, we believe, there is a sense in which the Gospel Age ended in 1878, and another sense in which it is extended 37 years, or until 1914." - Watchtower May 1880 "The Sign of His Presence" p 3.

"The transition period of seventy years mentioned at the beginning of this article, has is parallel in the transition of the Gospel Age to the Millennium, or between A.D. 1844 and A.D. 1914" - Watchtower July 1880 "The Closing Work" p 4.

"There is a sense in which the Jewish Age extends until the destruction of Jerusalem, and in the same sense the Gospel Age extends to 1914." - Watchtower July 1880 "The Closing Work No.2" p 4

So Russell DID " predict that 1914 would be the end of the Gospel age", i n complete contradiction to Djeggnog's claim. These are only the first few references indicating the ending of the Gospel Age in 1914 that I found in a search of early Watchtowers. There were hundreds more.

There were some other interesting references too. Having already seen that Russell ends the Gospel Age in 1914, both from the quotes above and those in previous posts which show Russell dated the successive Millennial reign, the Millennial Age, as beginning from 1914, lets look at the following:

"The Gospel Age, lasting from the resurrection of Christ, when he became the "first-born from the dead, and the beginning of the new creation," until the full company of 'the Church of the First-born' is complete, and He comes. The time of the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the resurrection and reward of the prophets, saints etc. Rev 11:16" - Watchtower July 1979

"And will all be complete at the end of the Gospel Age. And then shall the Great High Priest of the world (Jesus and His bride made ONE, Head and members complete) stand forth crowned a King and Priest after the Melchisidec order. There he will stand before the world (manifest but unseen)" - Watchtower March 1880 "The Great Day of Atonement" p 1.

So, the Gospel Age was to end in 1914, according to Russell's prediction, "And then he comes" , then Christ will "stand forth" , "stand before the world" , "manifest" but unseen .
Could it be more explicit? And I'm still only up to the 1880 Watchtowers! LOL.
Now contrast all of the above - the evidence in this post and all the other evidence presented - with DJ's claim:
"Russell didn't teach a thing about the invisible coming of Christ... Russell did not know when Jesus' coming would begin and he didn't make any predictions concerning Jesus' coming, visible or invisible...Russell did not predict any date at all....Russell did not predict 1914 to be the year of Jesus' invisible coming"

Essan

Bump :)

peacedog

Well done, Essan.

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

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