SBC: To act like those words are all one and the same sounds intentionally deceptive, as if you want to blur the lines so you can paint all child-spankers as child-abusers. Why?
CJ: No one is acting like those words mean the same.
You obviously haven't read the whole thread. At the beginning, it was unclear as to what some meant by the word "beating". Spanking was lumped in. That's the whole reason I said some people "don't differentiate between hitting, beating, and spanking." There is a difference.
CJ: I am not blurring the lines but I am stating that touching someone causing them pain with the purpose of "educate" is physical abuse.... that is not a judgement is a fact.
Bullshit. Now you're just stating your opinion as fact. Show me a reliable source where a non-injurious swat to the heine is considered abuse when administered as discipline. It is not black and white like you'd have everyone think. A swat on the butt is not factually classified as abuse.
http://www.childwelfare.gov/can/types/physicalabuse/
CJ: Doesnt matter what I use or where do I apply it. Do you see my point?
No, I don't, because I don't see it in black and white like you. You'd feel exactly the same if you see a parent punch a child in the face as when you see a parent swat their kid's bottom? Ridiculous. Thta's why you made that ugly presumptuous comment insinuating parents spank their kids on the behind to 'hide the abuse.' It's like you have some kind of agenda to villainize all parents who spank. What is your point in this whole discussion? If you're trying to encourage other forms of discipline and better parenting, great! But there seems to be a further agenda.
Do you know that if you spank me in the street and I put it on tape I can accuse you of "assault and battery"? noone has the right to touch me. being me 2 or 80.
No, your parents had the right to spank you when you were a toddler. As LWT said, paddlings are even allowed in some schools in the south to this day. My daughter's school still performs corporal punishment. We don't allow them to paddle our daughter but that doesn't change the fact that its allowed if the parent permits it. It's a parent's choice.
SBC: That's just another false dichotomy and seems to say if you swat a child on the behind after a warning (ie, "Don't touch that! You'll burn yourself!") you're a child-abuser, no different than the ones who beat their kids bloody and lock them in the closet.
CJ: that is not judgment. I am not calling them good or bad. I am calling the "child spankers" beacause that describes what they do.
By your logic you're calling them child abusers. That is a judgment. In effect, if A = B and B = C, then A = C. Don't try to dilute it now. You refer to even the mildest swat on the rear as child abuse, therefore someone practices swatting must be what?
CJ: If that violates a personal right then I will call the action that. Dont confuse judging someones actions with someones character. No false dichotomy here.
No, that's exactly what it is. You see no shades of gray. You've been consistently leading us to believe that people who swat heines are child abusers just the same as the ones who beat their kid with a 2x4. According to you, it's all child abuse.
SBC: To me, there are MANY factors to consider before spanking a child, including but not limited to the attitude of the person delivering the discipline, the action that requires the discipline, the child's personality, age, etc... Abuse is never acceptable!
CJ: so if I have a good attitude and you really require discipline its ok to spank you because you need it..... right? What is abuse? Maybe we should start by talking about that.
Look it up, chief. Google physical abuse. I even gave you a link above. What does wiki say about child abuse? Does it say spankings automatically constitute abuse? No.
CJ: Because for many people verbal abuse doesnt exist and for others just raising the voice is abuse. My point here is that children have the same rights that you and me have. They are just small and ignorant but very smart. Why should I need to spank a kid? Can I use a different method?
Of course you can. I'd recommend it. And that's what my wife and I do now. But that doesn't mean I should automatically label a parent who chooses to spank as a child abuser if he believes a particular circumstance calls for it.
SBC: back when you used corporal punishment on your kids, did you "beat" them or "spank" them? And regardless of what you call it, do you agree that the police should've been called on you?
You still didn't answer this one. So do you wish someone would've seen it and called the cops so your daughter could be taken away? Would you like to be known as someone who abused his child?
CJ: I only spanked my Daughther once. But however I believed it was ok to use it. She was 1. I spanked her on the butt. I was upset. right after I spanked her she continue crying but this time because I had caused her pain. I gave pain to my own child. I made her cry because she was crying. What did I achieve? nothing. I felt like a coward spanking my own because I didnt know how to take control of the situation in more civilized way. After that moment I never did it again.
Maybe if you spanked out of anger you should feel like a coward. Not every parent spanks in the same spirit you spanked. Maybe you should stop projecting your experience onto every other spanker.
CJ: There is no circumstance where physical punishment is needed. Think about it. If I need to use force on another individual it means I lost already my ability to use reason.
Perhaps your kids were better at logic and reasoning at the age of two than other two year olds. Time-outs and corners aren't always effective for every child in every case. Like I said, some parents may prefer to judge the situation based on all circumstances.
I'm not sure why we're still arguing. If you've read my posts, you know I choose other methods of discipline over spanking. To me there's no crime more despicable than a crime against a child. You've made your points about how you discipline and those points are totally reasonable. We employ a similar method. But something in your posts makes me feel like I need to defend my parents - good people - from those who stamp "child abuser" labels a bit too freely.
What do we need for a truce?