But I'm DECREASING every time~!
Ground Zero Mosque
by minimus 105 Replies latest jw friends
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Justitia Themis
Ya. I wonder if you'd feel the same way if your husband or son or daughter had been in one of the towers that day and never came home. Everyone's got Rights, but common sense has apparently gone by the way side.
If we watched the same show (Christiane Amanpour's ??) then you are aware that there was a mother on the panel whose pregnant daughter was in the towers and was killed.
She gave a very passionate and cogent defense of Islam, and she wants the Cultural Center built (the mosque portion has been functioning at that site for quite some time) Her reasoning was that the success of our religious, cultural, and ethnic plurality is precisely what Bin Laden attacked that day, and that every move we make away from embracing that plurality is a win for Bin Laden, which renders her daughter's death meaningless.
As for how I would feel...when I heard this mother speak, my mouth dropped open, and I told my husband, "OMG. I never looked at it from that perspective. What if ____ or _____ had been killed there. I would be furious at all these anti-mosque people for just those same reasons." So Mary, I already crossed that bridge in my mind.
I can see that you have a LOT of passion for your position, and you frequently rail about Islam. But what solutions do you propose?
This situation is not at all like your specious Nazi-pacification analogy. That dealt with a jurisdictionally defined nation-state with clear borders and a homogeneous population. We are dealing with an ideology of hate that spans the world and hides in a religious group of 1.5 billion people.
So let's put Mary in charge. What plans would you implement, besides just screaming in posts?
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SweetBabyCheezits
SBC: It's not about political correctness. It's about not being ignorant and prejudice.
Mary: Bullshit. It's about political correctness.
Mary, I offered supporting statements and a question to promote critical thinking in my post. You addressed neither the question nor the logic I proposed but, instead, offered a gradeschool comeback... the equivalent of "nuh-uh!"
Your prejudice is bleeding through. Please argue this with some thought and not just reaction.
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Justitia Themis
So I'm a bigot because I don't think Islam deserves the time of day
No. You're a bigot because you have repeatedly denigrated masses of people you don't know by lumping them into an evil and "other" category based upon religious identification alone.
As a JW, you were a religious bigot (JW "in"-everyone else "out"), and you remain a religious bigot (non-Muslims "in"-Muslims "out"). All you have done is rearrange some labels.
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Justitia Themis
Please argue this with some thought and not just reaction.
If you review past Islam/Muslim/Middle East threads, you will see that Mary lacks that ability.
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beksbks
This thread pits "liberals" vs. "Conservatives".
No, it pits closed minded fools against those who have the ability to think beyond their own noses. Now that you mention it yea. Conservatives do tend to be closed minded fools. Carry on.
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ninja
remember when the russkies were the enemy....eh?.....because you were manipulated into believing they were....the average american and
russian would have got on just fine if left alone.....
however now they have manipulated you into believing that islam is your enemy.....and you swallow it...why?.......because deep down it is showing
up your own prejudices...it's by your own consent you blame them and back the powers that be to kill them
however
what do you think the average arab is being told on the other side?.......do you think he's being told to embrace the west?....his mind is being
twisted also
people are people the world over....no better no worse than anyone......or are you better than poor muslims who have lost families and property
and all hope?
why in the film 1984 did they have a ceremony called two minutes of hate???...where they wheeled out a picture of goldstein.....
plain and simple
control and brainwashing
wake up and grow up....there is no real left and right......no us and them....except in your own mind
beks.....conservatives aren't the close minded fools.....people are.....whatever label you stick on them
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ninja
instead of goldstein think bin laden
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Mary
If we watched the same show (Christiane Amanpour's ??) then you are aware that there was a mother on the panel whose pregnant daughter was in the towers and was killed.
Yes, it was the same show.
She gave a very passionate and cogent defense of Islam, and she wants the Cultural Center built (the mosque portion has been functioning at that site for quite some time) Her reasoning was that the success of our religious, cultural, and ethnic plurality is precisely what Bin Laden attacked that day, and that every move we make away from embracing that plurality is a win for Bin Laden, which renders her daughter's death meaningless. As for how I would feel...when I heard this mother speak, my mouth dropped open, and I told my husband, "OMG. I never looked at it from that perspective."
Well, my mouth dropped open too when I heard her speak, although for a different reason. I was stunned beyond words that anyone who had lost a family member that day could possibly be supporting the very religion that had been responsible for my daughter's death. Something tells me that that woman is in the minority. I've seen plenty of the victims' families being interviewed and they are outraged and horrified at the thought of a mosque being allowed to be built so close to Ground Zero. And I disagree that it was America's religious, cultural and ethnic plurality that Bin Laden was attacking that day as I doubt he gave a damn about that. He was attacking America (the 'Great Satan') for mostly political reasons: His hatred for their political interference in the Middle East, their general support of Israel, America's success as a superpower (nothing's more infuriating that seeing your opponent be at the top of the heap), his obvious hatred for 'Capitalism' (hence, the attack at the WTC) and to a lesser degree, the freedom that America represents. As we are all too aware, nothing is more frightening or infuriating to a cult leader that people being allowed to think for themselves, be educated, to stand up and give their voice to injustices they see happening, or even to fight for basic human rights. IMO, that is what he was attacking that day, not cultural plurality.
I can see that you have a LOT of passion for your position, and you frequently rail about Islam. But what solutions do you propose? So let's put Mary in charge. What plans would you implement, besides just screaming in posts?
There is no one easy answer to the problem of Islam as they make up about 1/5 or 1/4 of the world's population and most of them live in countries where dissention, the Rights for women or uncomfortable questions are not tolerated. As for the Muslims living in the west, I would fully support the ban on burkas for starters. The sole purpose of them is for Muslim women to be reminded that they are 'less than a man' and they are demeaning to say the least. I'd also recommend that Immigration (both in Canada and the USA) screen immigrants far more closely than what they've done in the past and the second any of them get in trouble with the law, deport them, plain and simple.
There is also a huge problem with 'honor killings' among Muslims for the most ridiculous reasons. There was a father (in Burlington I think) not too long ago who murdered his 16 year old daughter because she no longer wanted to wear the Islamic head gear to school. The asshole of course, thought it was his god given Right to murder a disobedient 16 year old for daring to question him and I think he was shocked that he now sits in prison waiting trial for murder. IMO, anyone found guilty of honor killing should have to pay with their own life, end of story. That would get the message across pretty damn quick that this neandrathal behaviour won't be tolerated.
I had a conversation with my (Muslim) dentist, not too long after 9-11. We talked at length about Islamic religion and culture and the trouble even he sees with it. He said to me "Mary, when I came to Canada, I felt it was my responsibility to adapt to Canadian culture, not expect Canada to adapt to mine." While he's a practicing Muslim, he does not agree with Muslims always screaming and whining about some perceived injustice that they view as infringing on their 'Right's and believes that when Muslims come to this country, they need to educate themselves and adapt to our culture instead of expecting the entire country to kiss their asses whenever they walk down the street. He's viewed as a traitor by many of his relatives in Toronto because he doesn't "dress like a Muslim" nor does he make his wife cover her head. His great-uncle was furious when Dr. Hussein's wife showed up at a family gathering in dress pants and a flowered top which covered her from her neck down to her feet. It wasn't good enough as you could (gasp!) see her hair!!! A huge fight ensued which got so loud it ended with a neighbour calling the cops.
While I would like to say I believe education is the answer, I think it would have limited success as how do you educate people who don't want to be educated? There have been many Muslims (or ex-Muslims) who have openly stated that Islam is simply not compatable with the ideas of Freedom that the west represents. Islam is not run by Democracy---it's run by Theocracy (an idea that we're all too familiar with), which means the men in charge claim sole ownership of what 'truth' is and that they and they alone speak for God and you better not question anything we say. The punishment for doing so is swift (usually) deadly. One thing that should have happened is right after 9-11, they should have gone after Bin Laden with everything they had. They should have gone over to the mountain regions in Pakistan and Afganistan where the cowardly bastard was hiding and they should have bombed and bombed and bombed until they got the son of a bitch. They also should have made every effort to wipe out the Taliban. Instead, the weak-assed response from a weak-assed President did absolutely nothing. Bin Laden's still alive, the Taliban have come back in even greater numbers and America's still involved in a bullshit war that had nothing to do with 9-11.
I found this woman's testimony pretty much on the mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbz2ZC59_yw&feature=fvw
No. You're a bigot because you have repeatedly denigrated masses of people you don't know by lumping them into an evil and "other" category based upon religious identification alone.
Which we do every day on here when we talk about the WTS and you don't bat an eyelash. We all know that not every single Witness is a bad or evil person, yet we generalize all the time when we talk about how screwed up the religion is. Have you ever protested that? Not that I recall. This is not being a 'bigot'---it's a reality of life. People generalize all the time when discussing matters whether religious or political. It appears that the only time it becomes politically incorrect is when Islam is the subject at hand. And gee, does that mean everyone else on here who views Islam as a dangerous cult is also a biggot? Is Farkel a biggot because of his comments on this thread? Or is this title reserved just for me?
As a JW, you were a religious bigot (JW "in"-everyone else "out"), and you remain a religious bigot (non-Muslims "in"-Muslims "out"). All you have done is rearrange some labels.
No, what I've done is be able to recognize another dictatorial cult when I see one. As Witnesses, we were taught not to tolerate anything if it didn't have the GB's seal of approval. As often is the case, when some leave, they go to the opposite end of the spectrum and now feel that because we didn't tolerate anything as Witnesses, we now have to tolerate everything---even if it's another insane cult. The members of Islam are just as much victims as the family and friends we left behind in the WTS. There are good and decent people in both, but that doesn't change the fact that they belong to a cult.