No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum) (page 12)

dysfunction

To Chalm

Thanks for the welcome Chalm, well they might have rest and food but what about the sex? No mention of sex, please show me a scripture.

dysfunction

To Zid

Yeah Zid that is what I am talking about a honeymoon. Do I get my pick of a male angel, I might have to trade in the human model? Hope I can keep up!

factfinder

The Bible clearly teaches only a select group get resurrected to Heaven and it is to rule with Christ for the Thousand years. The Earth is the permanent home of mankind.

But for those who believe you are going to heaven:

How will you get there?

What will you do there?

Heaven is the realm of spirit creatures only.

Are there any scriptures that show what you would do in Heaven?

It would be nice to be able to be sure that there is a wonderful afterlife and not just eternal death. Sadly I no longer believe I will get a resurrection.

You face the same problem that Christendom faces from the other side. In trying to cut either heaven or earth from the Bible promises you have a lot of scriptures you need to rewrite or ignore according to your man-made doctrine.

Recognising that the Bible hope deals with both earth AND heaven is half the Battle.

John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Curtains

the good thing about Sobrino's understanding is that being born again is not restricted to a small group.

sobrino said

"Another thing is that Witnesses often say that only the 'anointed' need to be born again and thus they are the one's that inherit the kingdom, in heaven. That is surely an interesting belief, but equally unscriptural. Matthew 25:34: “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. This text very clearly demonstrates and shows that the "sheep", supposedly the "great crowd" of Witnesses, will also "inherit the kingdom." It also demonstrates that the kingdom of God or as Matthew calls it, the kingdom of the heavens, will be on earth. According to Witnesses, this group of "sheep" aren't born again and yet they still inherit the kingdom! Though this kingdom is supposedly in heaven. According to Jesus, not so." To me this is a huge problem for Jehovahs witnesses and they have to falsify almost all of the new testament to support their doctrine of denying being born again to those who have an earthly hope.

debator

Hi curtains

Nice sounding but unbiblical. The Bible makes a point of naming 144,000 as a specific group of kings and priests to rule over mankind as co-heirs with Jesus.

Even if you try to place them on earth they stil remain separate from the great crowd.

And does that mean Jesus is also on earth as a man with them as co-heir?

(rubs head in amazement) Born-againers really like to take a lone scripture out of biblical context and run with it, letting it take them in any bazaar direction while ignoring the framework of other scriptures restricting it.

Curtains

debator in revelation the 144,000 and the great crowd are one and the same group. Read revelation 7 in its entirety and you will maybe see and hear with John's ears and eyes - lol.

and please no lies

debator

hi Curtains

I'll quote Revelation 7

4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

So Your saying a specific number counted out (144,000) are the same as a group that cannot be counted that happen after them. I think it is you that needs to reread Revelation 7 and think about what happens when you create oxymorons. Counted - uncountable

designs

Debator-

One of the problems (and there are multiple) that any Western christian group has with Revelation is there geocentric/culturalbias suppositions.

A literal 144,000, but the Tribes are symbolic, says one group, another says both are literal meaning real Jews from the Tribes then other groups say its all symbolic. In the end its all imagined. Each group, from Catholics to Calvin to JWs to Fundamentalists, have made a fictionalized theology that makes sense to them. And that's all it is- Fiction that tells a story about God making some arrangement to end one world and start another.

Swell

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

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