I think you are right about the great crowd being a different group as they come out of all nations, tribes and peoples and tongues whereas the 144000 come out of certain jewish tribes. My excuse is that I didn't used to pay attention when I was a witness and still am quite sloppy in my comprehension
Actually your original view is held by various Bible scholars and commentators, that the two groups may be the same or least overlap. "Some have argued that two different groups are in view, the prevailing view when Bousset wrote the second edition of his commentary in 1906 .... Most scholars now contend, however, that a single group is described from different perspectives" (Aune, Vol. 2, p. 447). The audition in the first half of ch. 7 ennumerates the tribulation saints in the style of an OT military census (cf. the description of the 144,000 as celibate in ch. 14, which is a requirement for holy warriors in the OT); they bear the mark of God on their foreheads, which anticipates the description of the great tribulation in ch. 13 in which the Beast "was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them", with the Beast killing all those who refused to accept its mark on their foreheads and/or right hands (v. 7, 16-17). These saints are explicitly on earth during the audition (7:1-4). The time is also prior to the plagues, as these saints are all sealed prior to the angels unleashing the natural forces on the earth. The vision of the great crowd, on the other hand, is at a point later in time. It is after the great tribulation (v. 14) and the victory song in very similar to the one in ch. 19 (which is in response to the destruction of Babylon). The great crowd are in heaven, i.e. they have been martyred like those before them who were martyred and went to heaven to await their avenging which would not occur until the full number has been killed (6:9-10). Both groups thus may represent the tribulation saints at different points in time: the audition follows earlier martyrdoms but precedes the great tribulation, whereas the vision follows the tribulation and shows the full number of martyred Christians in heaven. The 144,000 is the group chosen to complete the number (as the earlier martyred saints in ch. 6 were waiting in heaven for the full number to be completed).
The difference in number and national affiliation is also intelligible with the view that both represent the same group from different points of view, as they draw rather clearly on different conceptions of Israel found in the OT and NT. First, John is given an audition of the drafting of 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. These are specifically numbered and defined by their tribal affiliation. But in the vision, John sees an "innumerable" crowd from all nations and tongues. In the promise to Abraham, God promised that his descendents would be as innumerable as the stars in the sky or the grains of sand on the seashore. Thus the notion of innumerability is built into the concept of Abraham's seed, which Paul in Galatians applied to Christians. Abraham was also promised to be the father of many nations, which also includes the notion of internationality in Abraham's seed. With Christians being the heirs promised to Abraham, the "seed" would include the many tongues and nations represented in the early Christian church. The notion of innumerability is also closely linked to the problem of census-taking of Israelites in the OT, as this would put a number on what should be innumerable (so in some passages census-taking was construed as a great sin, while in others it was an acceptable part of waging war). The twelve tribes of Israel are indeed described as being as innumerable as the sand on the seashore in 2 Samuel 17:11 and 1 Kings 4:20.
I agree with designs that revelation is to be taken symbolically.
Such as the tribes listed, which do not correspond to any literal tribes of Israel (the twelve listed do not correspond to any OT list of the tribes) or Christianity (which was not divided up into tribes). Rather the tribal specification is a metonymic application of "Israel" and its basic features to the Christian community at large.
I was looking at Youngs translation and he puts 144000 in the plural - one hundred and fortyfour thousands I want to ask Leolaia if young is simply being very literal. Otherwise his translation suggests there are many 144 thousands - this would make it quite interesting if he suggest such huge multitiudes
Well, as I pointed out, the notion of Israel itself embodies innumerability, see the verses cited above that referred to the twelve tribes as being as vast as the sand on the seashore (an alusion to Abraham's promise, which Paul applied to the church). And as I pointed out also, the census in ch. 7 of Revelation is a military draft like those in the OT (see Numbers 26, for instance). These warriors do not represent the totality of "Israel" but only a portion, as the expression used in Revelation also indicates (12,000 sealed ex "out of" each tribe, i.e. the 12,000 is a portion taken out of each tribe).
This is just an instance of the YLT being too literal; this is simply a matter of grammatical agreement in number (imagine saying "two dozens" instead of "two dozen"). This can be seen in the verses that follow that khiliades is plural there as well, and it does not refer to a sum more than 12,000 because 12 x 12,000 = 144,000.
If the 144,000 rule as kings and priests over the earth, they have to have somebody to rule over. However, the 144,000 rule "on" not "over" the earth (Rev. 5:10). The New World Translation says "over"; the Greek says "upon".
As I've mentioned in earlier threads, the NWT is correct here. Epi here follows a verb of authority and is properly translated by "over" in English, e.g. "Queen Victoria ruled over the entire British Empire" ("over" expressing a relation of authority, not a spatial location). "On" implies a spatial location, which is not the sense of epi here. The Society also sometimes errs in interpreting "over" in the NWT in a spatial sense, i.e. that they are spatially located in heaven "over" the earth. They even make this claim while at the same time acknowledging that epi is non-spatial here!
