No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 135 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Curtains

  debator

  take another look -

  4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
  5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
  from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
  from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
  6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
  from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
  from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
  7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
  from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
  from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
  8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
  from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
  from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

  9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
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  debator

  Hi designs

  The basis for thinking Israel is about a Jewish origined Christian group established by Jehovah through his son rather than going back to rejected jews themselves, is already established in the Bible. That talks about grafted-on boughs and already has gentiles becoming Christians through Peter.

  Ephesians 3:6
  This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

  What we have is a Bible that explains itself when we need explanation but men try to put their doctrine onto the Bible constructing it from out-of-context Bible scriptures.
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  designs

  Well like my Jewish side says .... 'We Never Lost it'.

  The problem with "Paul" is whoever this was he makes some awfully Gentile mistakes about Judaism, think about it.
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  debator

  Hi curtains

  They are hearing about one group then after that they are looking at a different group.

  Revelation shoots you down with a later description of the 144,000

  Revelation 14:4 (New International Version)

  4... They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

  They come first as the firstfruits before the 7 bowls of wrath but what about the great crowd?

  Revelation 7:15 (New International Version)

  And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation;

  These weren't sealed before as the 144,000 were but they came out of the tribulation itself.
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  designs

  Russell, Rutherford and Franz were all influenced by John Calvin's teaching on Limited Atonement and Election Of The Elect. Thus their views on Revelation.
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  Leolaia

  What we have is a Bible that explains itself when we need explanation but men try to put their doctrine onto the Bible constructing it from out-of-context Bible scriptures.

  You mean like how the notion of a "great crowd of other sheep" is constructed from out-of-context Bible verses?
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  designs

  Fred Franz, like many elitist Christians, believed you have a favored inner group and the also rans. He liked to use the Jewish priests and the 11 tribes as a model where you have a few priests who get to enter the Temple and the populace who are blessed by them- ala his heavenly and Earthly classes. You can see which group Fred and company thought they were a part of.
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  Curtains

  debator, I think you are right about the great crowd being a different group as they come out of all nations, tribes and peoples and tongues whereas the 144000 come out of certain jewish tribes. My excuse is that I didn't used to pay attention when I was a witness and still am quite sloppy in my comprehension (I don't have a lot of time to post here as my family are all witnesses)

  though both groups are in heaven (wherever that might be) , they are in the temple and are in sight of the lamb, rev7:9. I'm sticking to both groups being born again too as Jesus said all his followers must be born again.

  I agree with designs that revelation is to be taken symbolically.

  And Leolaia makes a good point about Jehovahs witnesses doing what they accuse other religions of doing when she said

  "You mean like how the notion of a "great crowd of other sheep" is constructed from out-of-context Bible verses?"
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  Curtains

  I was looking at Youngs translation and he puts 144000 in the plural - one hundred and fortyfour thousands

  I want to ask Leolaia if young is simply being very literal. Otherwise his translation suggests there are many 144 thousands - this would make it quite interesting if he suggest such huge multitiudes
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  isaacaustin

  Reniaa/Debator said:

  Nice sounding but unbiblical. The Bible makes a point of naming 144,000 as a specific group of kings and priests to rule over mankind as co-heirs with Jesus.

  My reply: The Bible does NOT say that 144,000 rule as kings and priests!