No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 135 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • sobrino1
    sobrino1

    To: Leolaia

    I don’t see how using Ephesians is a problem with regards to Paul saying that he hasn’t received his reward yet. Nobody gets their reward until Jesus comes:

    (Revelation 22:12) “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is.”

    The point of me alluding to Ephesians is to show how one can in some sense be “in heaven” but yet on earth.

    Anyhow, I don’t think it necessary to understand Phil. in light of Eph.

    British N.T. scholar NT Wright says this about Philippians 3:20-21:

    “Many have thought that if our citizenship is in heaven that means that heaven is our real home, the place to which we will eventually go. But that is not how the language of citizenship functions. The point of being a citizen of a mother city is not that when life gets really tough, or when you retire, you can go back home to the mother city. The people to whom Paul was writing in Philippi were Roman citizens, but they had no intention of going back to Rome. They were the means through which Roman civilization was being brought to the world of Northern Greece. If and when the going got tough there, the emperor would come from Rome to deliver them from their enemies in Philippi, and establish them as a true Roman presence right there. So, Paul says, 'from heaven we await a saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body.' This is, I suggest, much more integrated with a theology of new heavens and new earth than with a theology of going from the present space-time world to a nonspatiotemporal one. It ties in with other passages such as Gal 4.21-31, which speaks of the Jerusalem 'which is above.' The purpose is not to escape to that Jerusalem, any more than the muddled Galatians thought they had to go and live in terrestrial Jerusalem in order to be proper Christians. No: they were under the dangerous influence of the terrestrial Jerusalem, and Paul is saying, in effect, 'you must be under the influence of, and act as the agents of, the heavenly Jerusalem.' Philippians 3 and Galatians 4 both speak of the dimension of the present reality which is to be informed by the mother city, not of a sense of escaping from present reality to that mother city.”

    With regards to Philippians 1:23, I would agree that to be “released” (NWT) or “departed” to be with Christ is what Paul is talking about. You asked, in essence, ‘where is he departing?’ I would say where Jesus is. But when does this take place? When is this “being with Christ” take place? I believe it is at his coming. Since the dead in Christ are raised first, and since that should include Paul, then it is at his coming (1 Thess 4:16-17) when Paul gets what he was talking about.

    Jesus is only in heaven temporarily:

    (Acts 3:19-21) Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of the Lord and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. . .

  • Lozhasleft
    Lozhasleft

    Loz x

    PS Welcome!

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    Could you answer my questions?

    Also, what religion, if any, do you associate yourself with, sobrino?

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    Also, 1Peter 1:1-4 talks about us being strangers in this world where our real inheritance lies in heaven.

  • sobrino1
    sobrino1

    Brotherdan:

    Could I get your opinion on this one:

    John 14:2,3 - "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also"

    Where is the Father’s house? In heaven, but he also says “I am coming again”… You can only go back “again” to somewhere you have already been…..the earth:

    (Acts 3:19-21) Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of the Lord and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. . .

    Is Jesus always going to be in heaven? No…

    You keep talking hermeneutics but cite no instance where I’ve violated any rules. On the other hand, you’re the one reading “kingdom of heaven” to mean “kingdom IN heaven.”

    Talk about “cult-like mentality.” You’re reading the Bible the way the Society does…

  • VampireDCLXV
    VampireDCLXV

    Uh... welcome sobrino1.

    Hopefully not all your posts will be this bitter...

    V665

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    He says I will come again and WHAT? Take you with myself. So that where I AM, you may be also.

    I don't even know where to begin to show how wrong you are about heaven. What rules of hermeneutics are you violating? Here are the BASIC rules:

    • Study the context of the passage and the theme of the book.
    • Look up the actual meaning of each word in the original languages.
    • Note the verb tenses, the cases, and other grammatical determinants.
    • Learn the cultural setting of the passage.
    • Determine what the original readers understood it to mean.
    • Check out cross-references to see how the words are used in other contexts.
    • See how the first mention of the word or topic is presented in the Bible.
    • Confirm an interpretation with two or three similar passages.

    You are taking a verse out of context and misapplying WORDS. You ignore Revelation altogether where the souls of those who were slain because of the Word are where? IN HEAVEN under the alter - Rev 6:9

    I just can't help but say that your reasoning is silly, at best.

  • Soldier77
    Soldier77

    No one is going anywhere, not to heaven, not to hell. You're all stuck here on this rock with me and you're gonna like it! Besides, I got beer, wine, and spirits. No, not THOSE kinds of spirits, but the liquid kind.

    Welcome sobrino1 to the forums!

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Hi sobrino1...Yes, I suspected that your perspective is similar to that of NT Wright, although iirc Bishop Wright allows for a temporary heavenly destination in the postmortem intermediate state. Would I be correct in understanding you that you believe that heaven is not a destination at all, whether immediately at death or in the resurrection?

    When I originally read Wright's Resurrection of the Son of God, I felt that his explanation of Philippians 3:20-21 and some other Pauline texts was rather strained. I will have to re-read his argument to better articulate what bothered me about it.

  • believingxjw
    believingxjw

    Sobrino1,

    " Is Jesus always going to be in heaven? No…"

    Could you expound on that a bit? Thanks.

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