by Farkel 144 Replies latest jw friends
:Thats how i picture the GB. I think the GB ultimately think they are working for the greater good and they are Gods organization
Well. You've just described just about every criminal tyrant in history, including Adolf Hitler.
Are you willing to call him a "victim", also? The only real difference between Adolf and the GB is that Adolf had the power to massacre people, and the GB doesn't. They have lamented that fact in print, too.
Farkel
go with Farkel on this one but there are surly hundreds of sentences form both of Rays volumes that you could pick up slight disagreement's with, the mans words were of a life saving aid to me at a point of rock bottom. Ray must have developed some very close friendships with the old fellas on the GB, he appeared to be very close to Lloyd Barry, may be there was a handful of them that he couldn't label as being particularly evil and may have had honorable intentions at the outset of the forming of this GB,albeit a very small handful, I always wondered about the personality types of the lesser known members of this GB or the ones who died very early after it's formation, Charles Fekel/Bill Jackson/Ganges/Poetzinger/Booth etc.
I have to agree with Farkel. I don't think they are victims they are the perpetrators. They know their policies are harmful and in some cases do cause death. At some point every one of the guys has to have seen that there are problems with what they are teaching and instead of admitting they are wrong and asking for forgiveness they try to prop up and justify their lies. At that point there is probably not much chance of them ever turning back.
Incredibly I agree with Farkel on this one. The GB are cognizant of their decisions and would never be considered victims in a court of law and aren't in the court of public opinion that is this forum. I still love Ray though.
This is an age old debate - AKA 'the banality of evil'. Hitler loved animals and good dessert. Stalin was a paternal figure who smoked a pipe and so on. You can find good in them if you wish, as well as the Governing Body.
I take issue with the notion that Ray Franz had friends on the Governing Body. The higher you get, the more the rule applies: Fellow Jehovah's Witnesses are not your loyal friends and never will be. It's cold and it's hard but it's true. Any state of friendship is dependent upon your status in the organization - and if you get df'd or just inactive, say goodbye, it's over. This is one of the biggest reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses are such depressed people with huge amounts of undiagnosed mental illness rippling thru congregations.
Ray Franz was a truly Christian man as I would define it. He set an amazing example of forgiveness and lack of bitterness over the harsh and unjust treatment he received.
OTOH, any society that does not punish or judge wrongdoing is irresponsible and doomed. The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have committed - and are utterly entrenched in committing fraud. The situation is worse than Bernie Madoff.
metatron
I agree with Farkel, the Governing Body knows all the lies and dirty little secrets. However, instead of being clean, upfront, honest and open they have as a group and as individuals made a choice to add more lies and twisted truths to hide their wretched deceit.
They are an oppressive regime peddling empty promises, and no matter how pretty the pictures of smiling fruit pickers in paradise may be, the conniving leaders truely are like whitewashed graves, a grand exterior hiding corruption and decay.
They are not victims. They know their policies and doctrines have done grievous harm, even bringing death to some, and yet thier mindset remains aloof and condescending.
The sly and slimy Watchtower leaders continue to trumpet a grandiose image of themselves at full blast, but their real legacy will always been found in the utterly wasted lives of their blind and broken followers.
Farkel, you again write an excellent post and argue the point well, and it is well taken. It is hard for me, (and maybe I am still governed by my old belief system...) to think that they are completly aware of how wrong they are on all levels. That being said, I have always completly believed that they know quite a bit of it is BS. I think the reason they are unwilling and unable to change many policies, is that without them, the R&F will certainly stop preaching, (What would be the point?) stop so many meetings, and really, I suppose, why join at all?
I know an elder, who, when I asked about something that I knew that the rest of the congregation didn't, (That they don't report your time to the org until the 20th or 21st....I had heard this from another JW elder in a cong in another city) said to me laughingly, "Well, some things the congregation can't know. If they knew we had changed the date, they wouldn't turn it in until the 20th and we'd still be calling the late ones!)
It's that kind of attitude the GB has I think.
Potleg, I really like the "whitewashed graves" example.
partly based on my own life and experience I agree with Ray and also Lady Lee. Also looking at the action of some still in.
How about these particular men being victims of victims because many of them truly believed their oracle, Fred Franz. Is it soooo far fetched to believe that many of these men were not evil horrible men but WANTED desperately to believe what they themselves were led to believe??
I don't think ray Franz' comment was wrong.
