@djeggnog wrote to sd-7:
Let me be blunt here: If a married man has a "hard on" (literally or figuratively) for another woman, it is because of his own desire, it is because he allowed a passion for this other woman to be cultivated in his heart. The converse is true for the married woman. Jesus wouldn't give such a person a pass; neither should we.
@miseryloveselders wrote:
Where I disagree with you however, is about Jesus not giving one such a pass, and the thought that neither should we. I don't buy that for one second.
Ok. I can accept this.
The bible is clear on gross sinners, meaning those practicing sin, hence grieving the holy spirit, having no forgiveness left for them.
No, you're mistaken. One doesn't necessarily grieve the holy spirit when he or she commits a sin. Recall that at 1 John 2:1, 2, the apostle John wrote:
If anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world's.
Did the apostle mean when someone says a swear word? Did he mean when someone shares a bit of gossip with someone? What about when someone speaks slightingly of one of the elders? Was he referring to murmuring, or did John mean the lie you tell someone about how you will see, depending on some future event, whether you will be in a position to loan him or her $100 when you know at the time that this person is the last person to whom you would loan money because you want to look good in his or her eyes?
Or, did John mean, for example, that when a man withholds from his wife the fact that he selfishly bought a brand new iTouch with 32MB storage for $299.99, since he thought she wouldn't even notice its newness despite the fact that this new device has a built-in microphone, a camera and more storage than the 8MB he decided to retire, while previously telling her that he didn't think it a good time for her to buy that refurbished Humax Series 2 TiVo with the integrated DVD recorder for $169.00 because (really!) he had had his heart set on spending $130.00 more on a new iTouch, that by misleading his wife in this way, that he has grieved the holy spirit?
Do you think adultery to be a more serious sin than lying or being deceptive? If so, why do you suppose we read at Revelation 22:15, that outside of the restored paradise earth will be "those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie." James writes at James 2:11: "For he who said: "You must not commit adultery," said also: "You must not murder." If, now, you do not commit adultery but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of law."
And how exactly would you describe the difference between the sin of adultery and the sin of idolatry or the sin of murder or the sin of spiritism or "carrying on a lie"? James says there is no difference between them, for if one should commit a sin, that one becomes "a transgressor of law." But if we should commit a sin, John says that we have the Lord Jesus Christ, a righteous one, to cover our sins, he being "a propitiatory sacrifice" for them. Right? But do any of these sins constitute blasphemy of the holy spirit? Maybe, but not necessarily. But what if one should grieve the holy spirit by what we're doing or saying? Is there any forgiveness for us if we are grieving the holy spirit? Yes, there is.
By doing this, we would be grieving the holy spirit. WHO WAS IT THAT TOLD YOU OTHERWISE? Did you read this in the Bible yourself or did you just assume that because you may have grieved God's spirit in the past, and were disfellowshipped from God's organization as a result, that you had committed the unforgivable sin and that it was impossibility for you to return to Jehovah?
At Ephesians 5:3-5, we read Paul’s counsel about avoiding prurient interest in fornication. The apostle Paul spoke about those that engaged in shameful conduct, even obscene jesting, and if our choice of entertainment includes our taking a prurient interest in immorality, in us seeing two actors on the Big Screen or on our DVRs acting out a sex scene, and in our talking about these movies, reading books and magazines about sex, and viewing such on cable tv, these could all be cases of our grieving God's holy spirit. But are any of these things unforgivable sins? No, they are not.
At Ephesians 4:30, Paul urged Christians to "not be grieving God's holy spirit, with which you have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom," for it is God's spirit that serves to help us to avoid sinful works. So, then, if we began a pattern of ignoring Bible counsel, we would then be resisting God's spirit, and we could then start developing traits that could result in our practicing sin willfully, "[f]or if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left." (Hebrews 10:26) If you are engaging in willful sin, that is to say, that you are sinning by choice due to your contempt for Jehovah, only then does resisting and grieving God's spirit constitute blasphemy of it.
Are you deliberately rejecting God's word? Then you would be grieving God's holy spirit, but are you deliberately rebelling against the evident manifestation of God's spirit? In this case, then you would be blaspheming the holy spirit, which is the unforgivable sin.
I have been teaching the word of God for many years, and if you want to teach others what God's word says -- you may not, but if you do -- then you must not make up things that the Bible does not say, make up things that the Bible contradicts.
At the same time, the very foundation of Christianity is acknowledging that we're sinners whether it be in thought, word, or action. [These] actions do in fact include [infidelity], amongst similar sins and worse.
No, no, no. "The very foundation of Christianity" is specifically spelled out in the Bible by the apostle Paul at Hebrews 6:1, 2: "Repentance from dead works, and faith toward God, the teaching on baptisms and the laying on of the hands, the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment"; these things, and you would forever forget what you said here to me today as to what you indicated to be "the very foundation of Christianity."
Please never again say that "the very foundation of Christianity is acknowledging that we're sinners, whether it be in thought, word or action," because that is simply not true, and now you know that this is not true because God's own word itself -- Hebrews 6:1, 2 -- says that you were WRONG. Please promise yourself that you will never ever tell anyone what you told me here today. Saying to others what the Bible says is consonant with speaking the truth, but when we should speak against the truth, we are rebelling against the evident manifestation of God's spirit just as the Pharisees did when they saw -- not what things we read today in God's word -- but the manifestation of the spirit's operation through Jesus in his many miracles and called it the spirit of the demons, the spirit of Beelzebub. (Matthew 12:24)
Note, too, this point: Jesus said at Matthew 12:31 that "blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven," but the very first thing that he says in this verse is that "every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven." Is marital infidelity a sin? Yes. Will it be forgiven. Yes, it will be forgiven. What if you were to say the words out loud, "Fuck Jehovah"? What if at the time you uttered these words you totally meant, "Fuck Jehovah"? Would this be blasphemy? Yes. Will it be forgiven? Yes, it will be forgiven. Is this just my opinion? No. Am I saying that Jesus said that such blasphemy will be forgiven? Yes. And these words of Jesus' are is in the Bible? Yes.
@miseryloveselders, the holy spirit speaks through God's word and God's word is speaking to you right now, so please do not resist it; please do not grieve it. "Receive holy spirit." (John 20:22)
We must acknowledge that we are sinners because we were all born as such, we were all born that way, we were all conceived in sin, we are all of us the children of Adam and Eve. (Psalm 51:5) Our common father could not pass on to his children what he no longer had, perfection. So what we are -- not what we think, not what we say, not what we do, but what we are, sinners -- is because through Adam "sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because we had all sinned." (Romans 5:12)
[Where] you lose me Eggnog, is by saying that "neither should we."
Where exactly did I lose you? I had said in my previous post that if a man should allow a passion for another woman not his wife to be cultivated in his heart, then it would be because of his own desire, and that the converse would be true for a woman. What was reported (in another post) was that the elders in one congregation had actually blamed the wife of a man that had committed adultery for his cultivation of sexual desire for another woman due to his wife's unwillingness to pay the marital due, and so I also said that Jesus wouldn't give such a person a pass and neither should we, as in "we Christians" shouldn't be making excuses for someone's immorality.
At that point, I have to ask the question, who are you? Who am I? Who are the several old men comprising the GB along with the token brotha amongst them?
Do you know why you have such disdain for the "brotha"?You sound to me like a "sistah" rolling over the "brotha" because of envy. I say because I cannot remember whites speaking this way, so, to use the vernacular, why are you hatin' on the brotha like this? Why do you zero in like this on the "brotha" and not on one of the whites? What exactly did the brotha do to you? Maybe I'm asking the wrong question here: Do you hate these "old men" that comprise the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses with a special hatred for this "fake" brotha because you think he's perpetuatin' and not a real brotha, because a real brotha would never be a member of the Governing Body?
Who am I? I'm an old man that happens to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but I believe you already know this, so, who am I? I'm an envoy of the kingdom of God that has spent hours over the years proclaiming and teaching others about "the good news of salvation." (Psalm 96:2)
Who are you? You are a spiritual sister of mine that has lost her way, someone that I'm trying to encourage that you might get back on the Way. (John 14:6) My words here could be the ones that you will recall my saying to you by the time that the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ begins, and my hope is that you will have gotten past your anger against Jehovah and that you will also have gotten past what seems to me to be self-hatred and will have come back to Jehovah when that revelation begins. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
Your post comes off to me as if you get off on being judge, jury, and you're dying, absolutely dying to be the executioner too. Imperfect men judging imperfect men.
I don't exactly know what to say to this. I don't judge you at all, for you have already been judged. But, "if I do judge, my judgment is truthful," because my judgment is really Jehovah's judgment, and anyone not exercising faith in the Son "has been judged already." (John 8:16; 3:18)
@djeggnog wrote to sd-7:
Let me be blunt here: If a married man has a "hard on" (literally or figuratively) for another woman, it is because of his own desire, it is because he allowed a passion for this other woman to be cultivated in his heart. The converse is true for the married woman. Jesus wouldn't give such a person a pass; neither should we.
@miseryloveselders wrote:
We're you lose me Eggnog, is by saying that "neither should we." At that point, I have to ask the question, who are you? Who am I? Who are the several old men comprising the GB along with the token brotha amongst them? Your post comes off to me as if you get off on being judge, jury, and you're dying, absolutely dying to be the executioner too. Imperfect men judging imperfect men.
@mrsjones5 wrote:
Misery, you hit it square on the nose. Thanks for expressing that thought.
What thought?
@djeggnog
