When God breaks his own laws (page 10)

tec

Designs, does Judaism welcome everyone into heaven (universalism), or is that promise just for those who are Jewish?

Tammy

designs

Hi Tammy-

Everbody gets to go to Paradise. Some just have to do a little Time Out for bad behavior.

tec

Interesting, Designs.

It makes me think of this scripture:

Luke 12: 47-48 That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.

So your time out = hell/purgatory? Just not eternal, but with varying degrees according to the person and their lives' misdeeds? This is what it seems to be according to the few things I looked at online. I think this is what you are saying as well? I also read that there are a few exceptions, but I didn't find out what those were.

Thanks for the thoughts,

Tammy

SweetBabyCheezits

The JW illustration doesn't really work here

Sorry, Tammy, I didn't mean the cases within the illustration were really parallel, only that I feel like arguments used to cover for god and the bible are like arguments used to cover for the WT/GB/F&DS.

You might choose not to believe them as evidence, but how can a person dismiss them completely? Knowledge of him has been passed from generation to generation.

Could we say the same for Muhammad? Sure, but you weren't raised in a predominantly Islamic environment so nevermind that. So do you disagree that the most fundamental layer of your faith started with presupposition regarding the bible/god?

You have to look through the Son to see the Father... whether you believe in either of them or not....... ...it is backward to base your thoughts on God on the OT over his Son.

Tammy, I can't "look through the Son" without getting my perception FIRST from the bible. And if I can't trust the whole bible, how do I know which parts are reliable so as to build my perception? I need a consistent method. Please tell me what I need to do.

tec

Sorry, Tammy, I didn't mean the cases within the illustration were really parallel, only that I feel like arguments used to cover for god and the bible are like arguments used to cover for the WT/GB/F&DS.

I understand. Note though, that I had decided that it was a good illustration after all :)

Could we say the same for Muhammad?

As I said, I haven't read the Quran, but I'm inclined to believe that it surely contains historical accounts of what had occurred for the people during that time? No reason to dismiss those at all. Or does their holy book not contain these? According to what we have written, there are witnesses to Christ's existence, and to his death and resurrection, and to the 'transfiguration' on the mount, etc. Does the Quran have the same sort of thing regarding Mohammed, and are there many authors/witnesses of and in the Quran describing these things?

I ask because I don't know.

Sure, but you weren't raised in a predominantly Islamic environment so nevermind that. So do you disagree that the most fundamental layer of your faith started with presupposition regarding the bible/god?

Started with a presupposition regarding God, yes.

Tammy, I can't "look through the Son" without getting my perception FIRST from the bible. And if I can't trust the whole bible, how do I know which parts are reliable so as to build my perception? I need a consistent method. Please tell me what I need to do.

I never said not to start at the bible. I started at the bible (when I started wanting to sort through what people had told me compared to what might really be there). So my advice would be to read the gospels that witness to Christ. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. Understand God by what you learn of his Son. Just listen to HIM. Then go ahead and read the rest if you choose to gain an understanding of Jewish history (which I assume you already have anyway).

Until I understood and came to know more of Christ, I was afraid of the OT God. But afterward, and only by first getting to know the Son, could I see Him clearly. "Look, he did try to warn those people. Look, he showed mercy on the entire tribe of Ninevites. Look, he said the worship and fasting he wants is for us to help the poor and the widows. Look, he said he wanted us to show mercy, instead of offering sacrifices!"

Some scriptures will stand out more as truth once you come to know Him. Others will stand out as falsely attributed, or misunderstood, for whatever reason.

So start with the writings and teachings of Christ, then look to the rest. Then you might even feel comfortable enough to do what even the bible says, and put your faith in Christ alone... rather than continuing to search the scriptures, which can only take a person so far, imo.

Tammy

edited to add: If it directly contradicts something Christ taught, then believe Christ over whatever else is written.

QuitWastingTIME

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. Wow, what an interesting thread and again, SBC, I commend thee for your very well thought out responses. Truly if an alien from another planet came to look upon us here on Earth, they might very well see things the way you do.

And speaking of aliens, one of my theories is that "Yahweh" might very well be a well-meaning alien, whether he lives a long time or is simply replaced by another to take his place and keep the appearance of the same (kind of like Raz-Algul in Batman) for our seeming benefit. Crazy, I know, but you can't say alien gods are any more crazy or disprovable than a god God. All the miracles of the Bible could very well be supported by an advanced technology. Remember all the rumbling in Mt Sinai? Spaceship, anyone? Sorry, I digress!

Ok, as far as breaking rules and what not, I always compare everything in life to Computer Science, programming, or even video games. Remember Contra on the NES? Remember how hard it was? You only had 3 lives and were expected to beat the ENTIRE game with just that!!! Impossible, but rules are rules. Of course, every kid knew that if you wanted to beat the game (help the Israelites win the battle) you had to put in the Konami CHEAT CODE (up up down down left right left right b a START). Now here's what's interesting: even though the game is technically BROKEN at this point (because the rules are that you are NOT supposed to have 30 lives) you can continue and even FINISH the game. Perhaps the same holds true with God and his own rules.

I know what you might be retorting: the programmers, in making Contra, actually set up that code, so technically it wasn't cheating. Ok, fine. But do you remember the Game Genie? That was game hacking in early form. Granted, SOME of those codes caused infinite loops (remember Super Mario and -1 world?) or other glitches that made the game unfinishable or produced strange results. But generally you could hack the game, "break the rules" and still finish with favorable and expected results.

The same might hold true with this world we live in. The programmer can change, add, or delete whatever he wants HOWever he wants without too many universe breaking consequences.

QuitWastingTIME

OH, when I said (helping Israelites win the battle) I was referring to the Sun standing still, which would be the result of the cheat code God may have put in there. heh

Nickolas

The only significant flaw in your cheat code theory, QWT, is when you dick with the programming the computer doesn't explode, whereas stopping the rotation of the earth would cause the oceans to wash over the land masses, the atmosphere to whip up into the mother of all hurricanes, the mountains to tumble, the crust of the earth itself to rupture and buckle and spew forth its molten core and every thing living and inert on the surface of the ground, in the water and in the air to be instantaneously torn apart - all at over 1,000 mph. The game wouldn't be extended, it would be over.

tec

I think someone in this thread mentioned it already, but if God had the power to stop the sun for a day (actually, the planet, but still all the laws governing that), then he also had the power to put a hold on all the laws of gravity, etc, that follow along with the stopping of the sun. (earth)

Not saying if this account is true or false. Just saying that someone with that power would also have the power to tamper with all the other laws too.

Tammy

Nickolas

And then it would be magic, Tammy, because the physical universe is physical because of the laws (or mechanisms or principles if you prefer) that He set in place to govern it. To contravene those mechanisms would be to contravene the physical universe itself, which goes to the original question. Assuming that God created the universe, and this tiny speck of a planet that is a part of it, it all exists only because of the laws he put in place. God the creator is the ultimate cause and effect guy. Do this, that happens. If he was able to stop the planet from spinning with no subsidiary consequences, then what does he do to accomplish it, yet maintain consistency with the Laws that he set up?

When God breaks his own laws

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