When God breaks his own laws

by Nickolas 111 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits
    But I actually believe what Jesus taught. I believe Him.

    I know you've said before that you don't believe in bible inerrancy. How do you choose which parts of the bible are accurate enough to take at face value? Because a Muslim can do the same with the Koran but that doesn't make Allah any more real. I don't see how you can have faith in certain parts of the Bible and simultaneously recognize that other parts are errant and/or immoral. That being the case, if you're on a real search for truth, why wouldn't you apply the very same scrutiny to the Koran as you do the Bible... and simply believe the loving parts of it??

    And I appreciate your openness that you haven't read the Koran but is it fair to say youdon't believe the Koran is inspired by god? I mean, otherwise, you'd have to share two conflicting faiths, right?

    With that in mind, we can be pretty confident that most Muslims born and raised in Pakistan are such because of presuppositions they accepted as children (such as, the Koran was given to Muhammad from Allah through Gabriel). So to identify their own flawed reasoning, they would have to first uproot their presuppositions.

    I'm not picking on you TEC. You seem very sincere and I think you're a good person. Despite the fact that I continue this debate, I respect that. If a person wants peace, he should believe. But if you want truth.... I think that requires some deep, introspective digging first. My opinion, of course.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Hypothetical: What kind of person would you rather watch over your children: The person who is good because he think he's being watched and fears punishment or seeks a reward? Or the person who is good because he believes in the humanistic value of doing good and does not think he's being watched?

    First of, let us remember that Grace tells us that we do NOT do good because someone is watching or we want a reward, we do good out of love and for the sake of good.

    Second, humanists can be religious too you know, so you gotta watch out for that too, LOL !

    ;)

    But to your point, we would choose the person that does good for "goodness sake" or course, as would everyone else.

    But where did that person's notion of "good" come from?

    I know, I know, that is a different thread ! LMAO !!

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits
    But where did that person's notion of "good" come from?
    I know, I know, that is a different thread ! LMAO !!

    By the beard of Zeus, man! Hahahahaha.... Yeah, I've already diverted us way too far off topic as it is.

    I will say this: I've considered that question quite a bit but I have to reserve judgment since I haven't put those pieces together. Even Dawkins assertion in The God Delusion is still sketchy to me.

    BUT that question doesn't demand the existence of Yahweh, Jesus, or Allah for at least two reasons:

    • the lack of instinctive [edit] contrasting morals (among other things) in the holy books
    • deism (if there was a superintelligent force who created all things, it didn't communicate to us through the bible or Koran)
  • tec
    tec

    But a supposition and a presupposition are two different things, as in judging and prejudging (prejudice). A presupposition is defined as "a supposition made prior to having knowledge."

    Gotcha, and I do understand what you're saying, SBC. I just also think that we can fight so hard against our presuppositions and our biases, that we're actually doing the opposite of being open-minded.

    I suppose my belief that God created everything was a presupposition, in the sense that I was taught this in childhood with no alternative given. It wasn't drilled into me, mind you. I did some sunday school and I attended a catholic high school (but I was not catholic and did not participate in the religious stuff), but my family was not religious in any way at all. I don't even remember having a talk about God even once with my mother as a child. OTOH, I imagine that if I had grown up as an atheist, being taught that the universe was caused by (a) or (b), and I accepted that as completely rational, then I would think these believers were just living in silly fantasy.

    But, as an adult, I have examined alternate reasons for the creation of universe other than 'God did it', and I know science shows that it is possible through some other means... (though I can never understand how something can come from nothing) But even then, in every culture, in every beginning, faith in god (s) has existed. I can't dismiss that, and the explanations that some propose are guesses at best.

    This isn't why I believe, mind you. Christ, alone, is why I believe. These other things are just, well... gravy. Prove to me that there is no Christ, and well, I might be shaken ;) But we both know that no one can do that.

    But again, some believers do become non-believers, and some non-believers become believers - as adults, regardless of what they were taught as children.

    Hypothetical: What kind of person would you rather watch over your children: The person who is good because he think he's being watched and fears punishment or seeks a reward? Or the person who is good because he believes in the humanistic value of doing good and does not think he's being watched?

    Unfair question :) Rigged - lumping all believers into the first category and all non-believers in the second. But there are more than those two choices.

    OR: The person who is good because of the love within him, love that extends to his fellow man. (belief or no belief)

    Tammy

  • tec
    tec

    How do you choose which parts of the bible are accurate enough to take at face value? Because a Muslim can do the same with the Koran but that doesn't make Allah any more real. I don't see how you can have faith in certain parts of the Bible and simultaneously recognize that other parts are errant and/or immoral. That being the case, if you're on a real search for truth, why wouldn't you apply the very same scrutiny to the Koran as you do the Bible... and simply believe the loving parts of it??

    But I don't 'simply believe the loving parts of it.' I believe Christ, and he is the judge by which I determine what else to take at face value. The more you get to know him, the easier that is to do.

    I've read the bible a thousand times (symbolism here ). I know what it says. I know what Christ taught and did. Right now, as the bible itself says and as Christ taught, I'm waiting on (and asking for) the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth.

    And I appreciate your openness that you haven't read the Koran but is it fair to say youdon't believe the Koran is inspired by god? I mean, otherwise, you'd have to share two conflicting faiths, right?

    I don't think so, no. But its not really my business. God will deal with muslims in his way, not mine. Although I do believe that their Allah is the same as our God (they claim to be descendants of Abraham as well) - they just don't have Christ to show them the truth of His Father. So yes, they would have to let go of presuppositions to accept Christ and not Mohammed. A near impossible task to do, and I don't think many of them have the option of examining their faith without real fear of (here and now) reprisal.

    If a person wants peace, he should believe. But if you want truth.... I think that requires some deep, introspective digging first.

    This sentence is funny to me :) Because to me, Christ IS truth. (and faith in him brings me peace) But yes, by all means, dig deep - and I hope you do find truth and peace.

    And I respect you as well, SBC. Your respect and sincerity comes across in all your posts. So no worries at all. I don't think you're picking on me :) I hope you don't think I'm picking on you, either, because I'm not.

    Tammy

  • Yizuman
    Yizuman

    I've been reading through the thread (catching up) and as some has pointed out, some nay sayers are only pointing out by the most part the negativities in scriptures (God killing people, etc.)

    So this leaves me the question, what about the positives in Scriptures?

    So, in my view in what and how I see as positives from my own personal point of view...

    1.) The Creation of God - I see God's love in His creation, the same kind of love that any good and kind hearted father would love their newborn child. For any fathers here, do you remember the feelings as you watched your newborn child being brought into this world? I'm sure that God's feelings isn't any different from yours.

    2.) God's Mercy - For those that dwells on the negativity of God, many are forgetting that not only God is full of justice, He's also full of mercy....

    A.) God delivered the Israelites from 400 years of bondage in Egypt.

    B.) When God sent Jonah to send a warning message to the city of Nineveh to prophesy and warn the people to turn away from their wicked ways or face punishment. When Jonah ran, if God was such a mean God, He could have just struck him dead instead of allowing him to run and run into all sorts of troubles. Yet at the end, he was spared of his life and Jonah saw that God exercised mercy for his disobedience rather have him killed outright. Then when he arrived at the city of Ninevah and warned the people, the people then repented. God gave mercy to the people and spared the city.

    C.) When Abram (before he became Abraham) spoke with God regarding the city of sodom and gomorrah, Abram asked the same question several times regarding what if there were so and so many good people in the cities. Every one of God's answer was that if there were (even one) good person inside the city, he would spare it. This shows God does indeed have mercy in His heart. God also spared Lot and his family, with the exception of his wife, who looked back, disregarding God's warning not to.

    Let's look at it this way, if you told your child not to cross the street by himself, yet he went and did it anyway, almost getting himself killed by an incoming vehicle. You as a parent would not only be scared nearly to death, but you'd also be angry that he disobeyed you. If you wanted to, you could have killed him for disobeying you. That'd be pretty mean, now wouldn't it? No, a true loving parent always run to their child to see if the child is alright, but also scold and punish the child with tempered mercy for disobeying you.

    3.) God spared the lives of Adam and Eve - God could have easily killed both of them and started over if He wanted to, but no, He choose mercy by sparing their lives and expelled them from the Garden into some harsh lands whereas they have to fend for themselves in order to survive.

    4.) God spared Abraham's son - If God was such a mean God, He could have easily ordered the sacrifice of human beings rather than animals. No, the example that God showed Abraham mercy to spare his son from being sacrificed on the alter and provided him a goat instead in the alter's place.

    5.) Joseph gave Mary mercy by attempting to send her away instead of turning her in to the Pharasees whom could have her stoned to death for what they could have believed that she commited fornication and falsely represented herself as a virgin at the time of their marriage. This is why God choose the right time, Mary, the decendent of David to betroth Joseph as her husband because He foreknew Jospeh's merciful heart. The timing was just perfect.

    6.) Jesus gave mercy by raising the dead, healed the sick, fed the multitudes. God also showed mercy by offering His Son as a sacrifical Lamb for our sins, taking the punishment in OUR PLACE so we don't have to.

    Scripture does show that God makes mercy & grace to be first and justice last. The bible is full of those examples and it dwarfs the examples of God's justice.

    So this leaves the question, which side of God do you prefer to be on? The side of God's justice or the side of God's love, forgiveness, mercy & grace who offered up His only begotten Son as an atonement for our sins?

    God also said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." Hebrews 13:5

    Unlike what the JWs would do if you faced disfellowshipping, shunning you from their lives if one screwed up from the standards of the WTS. God never forsakes you no matter where you have been and what you have done. His hand will always be outstetched towards you begging you to come home, like the story of the prodigal son.

    Yiz

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    yeah, what about the good things in the Koran? I mean it has some parts about killing the infidel and fighting is obligatory.... but hey we have to be positive and believe the good parts of the Koran.

    http://histclo.com/chron/me/islam/kor/kor-vio.html

    besides, are you God? how do you know why he wrote the Koran. Oh Because God inspired the Koran too. Besides there are more muslims than christians. Stop asking questions thats Gods business.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    1.) The Creation of God - I see God's love in His creation, the same kind of love that any good and kind hearted father would love their newborn child. For any fathers here, do you remember the feelings as you watched your newborn child being brought into this world? I'm sure that God's feelings isn't any different from yours.

    >>>That makes sense. If I feel love for my children then since god is my father he must be loving. I wonder who created all the children in africa who die before 5 and all the children of the egyptians. Maybe Satan created them, I dont know for sure and the bible doenst say it but if God is love the Satan is Hate therefore Gods creation is from love and Satan creation is from hate.

    2.) God's Mercy - For those that dwells on the negativity of God, many are forgetting that not only God is full of justice, He's also full of mercy....

    >>YEs God is merciful. I mean I know sometimes if you read the bible he sounds like he is not merciful and that he is unjust like killing 75000 israelites because David did the census. I know it sounds bad but I mean common be positive. look at the positive side. He stopped them from becoming pagans so then he would have to destroy them anyway. God is merciful....Allah is also merciful.

    A.) God delivered the Israelites from 400 years of bondage in Egypt.

    >> I know I know only 2 survided at the end and the rest died in the desert but hey it was their fault. God did his part. Dont blame God.

    B.) When God sent Jonah to send a warning message to the city of Nineveh to prophesy and warn the people to turn away from their wicked ways or face punishment. When Jonah ran, if God was such a mean God, He could have just struck him dead instead of allowing him to run and run into all sorts of troubles. Yet at the end, he was spared of his life and Jonah saw that God exercised mercy for his disobedience rather have him killed outright. Then when he arrived at the city of Ninevah and warned the people, the people then repented. God gave mercy to the people and spared the city.

    >>> Yeah can you imagine? If God had killed Jonah then he would have to have killed the people of Nineveh I mean I know its sound ridiculous that he couldnt warn those wicked people in other way but hey back then there werent that many volunteers...wait I guess Jonah wasnt that willing but hey be positive. Besides you must ignore the fact that for every wicked people the solution is destroy them. I mean he is god

    C.) When Abram (before he became Abraham) spoke with God regarding the city of sodom and gomorrah, Abram asked the same question several times regarding what if there were so and so many good people in the cities. Every one of God's answer was that if there were (even one) good person inside the city, he would spare it. This shows God does indeed have mercy in His heart. God also spared Lot and his family, with the exception of his wife, who looked back, disregarding God's warning not to.

    >>> See Gods is reasonable. I mean he didnt think of that before so thanks to Abraham's wit he changed his mind. Thank you Abraham. wait I guess it didnt matter because he destroy those cities anyway. But hey God was Merciful because he protected his angels (who are sexless) from being raped by using Lots daughters. I mean what is a girl in the bible anyway. besides those girls liked sex anyway. They even did their own father. I think I saw a movie about the same topic the other day., It was hot.

    Let's look at it this way, if you told your child not to cross the street by himself, yet he went and did it anyway, almost getting himself killed by an incoming vehicle. You as a parent would not only be scared nearly to death, but you'd also be angry that he disobeyed you. If you wanted to, you could have killed him for disobeying you. That'd be pretty mean, now wouldn't it? No, a true loving parent always run to their child to see if the child is alright, but also scold and punish the child with tempered mercy for disobeying you.

    >>>yeah lets scold the child and punish him for almost getting killed. lets give him a deeper trauma. They deserve it, they scare me. Freaking dissobedient children... wait I gotta go talk to my children (they are playin on the street. I better go give em a whipping beforfe they get killed or somthing)

    3.) God spared the lives of Adam and Eve - God could have easily killed both of them and started over if He wanted to, but no, He choose mercy by sparing their lives and expelled them from the Garden into some harsh lands whereas they have to fend for themselves in order to survive.

    >>Yeah I know he said the day they ate they will die. but he didnt really meant it, they survived 900 years more. I mean That was just a warning. Beside it was like a day for God anyway. And dont talk about their descendants who inherited the sin... That doesn count. Thats not fair. We are all humans and therefore sinful so we cant judge God.

    4.) God spared Abraham's son - If God was such a mean God, He could have easily ordered the sacrifice of human beings rather than animals. No, the example that God showed Abraham mercy to spare his son from being sacrificed on the alter and provided him a goat instead in the alter's place.

    >>Yeah, That story was not to prove Abrahams faith. God was bluffing and he never really mean it. Of course Abraham knew it cuz he knew God is merciful. But he just went along with Gods bluff , he know sometimes Gods just dont think that well (remember Sodom and Gomorrah)?

    >>

    5.) Joseph gave Mary mercy by attempting to send her away instead of turning her in to the Pharasees whom could have her stoned to death for what they could have believed that she commited fornication and falsely represented herself as a virgin at the time of their marriage. This is why God choose the right time, Mary, the decendent of David to betroth Joseph as her husband because He foreknew Jospeh's merciful heart. The timing was just perfect.

    >>>yeah. ITs all about timing. timing and location location location. God so freaking smart. I love you God.!!!

    6.) Jesus gave mercy by raising the dead, healed the sick, fed the multitudes. God also showed mercy by offering His Son as a sacrifical Lamb for our sins, taking the punishment in OUR PLACE so we don't have to.

    >>What about wine? he gave them wine too, see? What a good frienyd! the person who comes to a party and sees that there is no more wine but only water and then he brings the wine is the hero of the party. Jesus feed the poor who were following him 2 times. 2 times. I mean the people where poor. And I know those dead people came back to live and then died again. but hey dont blame God blame Adam is all his fault. oh the Killing Jesus for us is the best proof of love. Really think about it. There was no other way to redeem humanity. ZERO. NADA. the only way to forgive our sins (which some of us havent even commited) was to kill his own son as sacrifice....) oops lets just ignore the fact that God needs blood sacrifices like Satanic rituals please.. we have to focus on the positive.

    Scripture does show that God makes mercy & grace to be first and justice last. The bible is full of those examples and it dwarfs the examples of God's justice.

    >> Yeah justice second first love. So in a situation where justice is necessary lets put love first and forget about justice. Gods justice is not important as love. Love is., What is justice anyway. Lets just love each other guys.,.. group hug!!!

    So this leaves the question, which side of God do you prefer to be on? The side of God's justice or the side of God's love, forgiveness, mercy & grace who offered up His only begotten Son as an atonement for our sins?

    >>its up to you readers....do you wanna be on Gods good side? or the bad one? I mean look at the bad one. God is love! God is love and Allah is merciful. He killed his own son for us. GET IT GET IT GET IT! stop being so disrespectful and get in line... are you ready for grace?

    ok now back totopic

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    SweetBabyCheezits I have been following this thread and made only one comment. (Yisuman frightened me off. He has a bigger helmet than me!)

    You have articulated and reasoned with a logic and precision that I can only envy. There is no point in my attempting to contribute. No clarification is needed.

    Salute.

    PSacrameto and Tammy. Y'know I love you both. It's just that I am on walking a different path to you.

  • tec
    tec

    PSacrameto and Tammy. Y'know I love you both. It's just that I am on walking a different path to you.

    I'll presume to speak for Psac here for a moment, and tell you that your love is returned by us both, different path or not. Your kindness and your respect, despite differing beliefs, comes through in your words here.

    (also your wife sounds awesome and wise, from what I recall of your vacation recap... so you must be doing something right to have her)

    Tammy

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