by AGuest 58 Replies latest jw friends
No, dear WS (the greatest of love and peace to you, my dear one - MWAH, MWAH, MWAH!!)... you're absolutely right. Indeed, you took the words right out of my... fingers!
MWAH, MWAH, MWAH!!
Peace back at'cha!
Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
Shelb
You do know that I love you, don't you, dear tec?
You know, its funny to read that as I did last night and sort of say to myself, well as a sister in Christ, of course she does. (sort of take it for granted,because that is the sort of person you are, one who loves freely and generously, one who overlooks flaws and focuses on the rest - because love does this also) It is another thing to be thinking about this later, and realize... you know, she actually means it. She truly does love me.
Anyway, tears came to my eyes when I truly understood that.
You have my love also.
We think we have to SEE someone... with our eyes... in order to know and love them. This very board should show ALL of us that that is absolutely NOT the case. All we have to do... is listen to one another. And it is the exact SAME thing with our Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.
I absolutely do agree. Not only agree, but KNOW, since I do love Christ, and I care deeply for so many people here without ever having met most of them.
*waves back to Watersprout *
Question for you, Watersprout or Shelby, because I don't recall this one at all- but where does Paul say that the gifts of the spirit stopped with him?
Peace to you (s),
Tammy
Was 'Paul' really what you have been taught.
where does Paul say that the gifts of the spirit stopped with him?
I am SO glad you asked that, dear tec (peace to you!)... because I was actually going to do a separate post of that very subject! Since but you asked... Paul did not say that. That... is a[nother] VERY erroneous teaching of the WTBTS! Let's look at what Paul DID write... and I will set it out in difference versions to help us see exactly what he meant.
Version 1 (NLT), which is not a really good one:
"Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! But when full understanding comes, these partial things will become useless. This is inaccurate and misleading. When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely." The question here is what is meant by "then".
Version 2 (NIV), which is a little better:
"But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. This is better because it is referring to some kind of "completeness"... versus "full understanding" which is inaccurate. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face.This gives us a better sense of what Paul meant - think... what... or WHO... is a "reflection"... and what... or WHO shall we see "face to face"? Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
Version 3 (MSG), which is just a tad better than the NIV:
"Inspired speech will be over some day; praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit. We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled. What... or WHO... "arrives"... and is it, he, or she... complete? When I was an infant at my mother's breast, I gurgled and cooed like any infant. When I grew up, I left those infant ways for good. We don't yet see things clearly. We're squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. But it won't be long before the weather clears and the sun shines bright! We'll see it all then, see it all as clearly as God sees us, knowing him directly just as he knows us!"
Version 4 (NWT), still not totally accurate but my preference; note, please, my notes:
"But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. Yes, but WHEN? For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known."
So, what was Paul saying? He was saying that the things we do, know, and understand NOW... by means of the gifts of the spirit... are only PARTIAL. For example, if one has the gift of healing... such healing is only partial. Why? Because the healed person can and will get sick... again! And one has the gift of tongues, the results of the gift is only partial... because one can only speak one or two languages... but not ALL languages. And if one prophesies... one can only prophesy partially... because everything is not yet known to such one. It's all partial... or incomplete... because what we see NOW... is only the REFLECTION [of God]... by means of looking at the MIRROR (Christ).
BUT... that when Christ ARRIVES... the partial knowledge and partial understanding and partial healings and partial prophesying... that we have/know/do NOW... will be done away with! Why? Because... by means of HIM... we will THEN know and understand FULLY. Because THEN... ALL will be everlastingly healed. THEN... all prophesies will have been FULFILLED. So that what is partial... incomplete... is done away with. Because, Christ... the One who IS "The Complete"... will have arrived!
THEN... we will see him... face to face... and because of him... see God... face to face. And we THEN know God... accurately... as we are NOW accurately known BY God.
But for now... the gifts of the spirit very well do exist. They are real. For a certainty. Unfortunately, there are a lot of imposters out there who use the possibility of such gifts to deceive and mislead others. The gifts have ONE purpose, however: they are to be used for a "good" work... namely, the building up of the Body of Christ.
you know, she actually means it. She truly does love me.
I truly do. (Smile)
Peace to you, my dear sister in Christ!
YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
SA
The WT teaches that the gifts of the spirit ended when the last Apostle died.
Just another one of their false teachings.
to Shelby and Watersprout.
Tec -
Fear is very loud
Anything that is loud within us that is not of the fruitage of the spirit will prevent us from hearing, e.g fear (which you say you have), hate, anger, despair etc.
When all is quiet within us, it is then we will hear. Difficult to do (I should know) but very, very possible.
Peace to all
The Watchtower can only teach untruths!
I never understood why they taught that the ''gifts'' ended when the last Apostle died...They twist the scriptures to fit their thoughts...If and when i ever studied the watchtower i could never get the scriptures to fit what they written...I actually used to think it was because i was soo thick and unworthy, thats why i couldn't understand! They are sick... SICK I TELL YOU!
*Blows a big kiss at my sisters* MWAH
Peace
If you were really curious, you would be asking questions about atheism.
You assume I haven't, dear Moshe (peace to you!)... which is absolutely untrue. I have a mind that is curious about almost everything. Always has been. I absolutely get why many don't believe in ANY god... and if the Most Holy One of Israel and my Lord himself hadn't spoken to me, I would could see heading in that direction. Fortunately, for ME... I am yet another "log... snatched out of the fire." In more ways than one!
Again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA, who will make an exception and respond, if the comment/question is worth it. This one was...
There are Christian congregations that call on Jesus and all audibly hear his voice and many are visibly shaken with God's spirit. Not all, though, shake from the spirit some just audibly hear the voice without being shaken.
Then there are other Christian congregations who do not claim to audibly hear the voice of Jesus and do not shake with spirit. They meet together, they worship together, they love one another and follow Jesus.
Not all Christians in the first century shared the same gifts but they were all Christians nonetheless.
There are Christian congregations that call on Jesus and all audibly hear his voice and many are visibly shaken with God's spirit. Not all, though, shake from the spirit some just audibly hear the voice without being shaken.
Interesting, dear BXJW (peace to you!). I have never heard... nor read... where any of the gifts... or fruit... of the Spirit is shaking. I have heard of... and witness... other gifts. But never shaking. Why would the Spirit cause people to shake? What benefit is there to the Body if some shake? Was does shaking accomplish? How does it build up the Body?
To the contary, I have heard of, read about... and seen many times... where the presence of an[other] spirit causes shaking. Personally, I would check into that, if I were one who thought such phenomena originated from God.
Seems a bit "theatrical" to me... and of benefit solely to the one "shaking"... which is counter-intuitive to the PURPOSE for the gifts. But who am I to judge? To each one his own master he will stand... or fall.
Then there are other Christian congregations who do not claim to audibly hear the voice of Jesus and do not shake with spirit.
If they do not hear Christ's voice... whose voice DO they hear, dear one? WHO... are they following? One another? Their "leader" (pastor, reverend, priest, etc.)? Or are they just wandering??
They meet together, they worship together
Now, I do NOT mean to offend but I will tell you a truth about this: besides the truth that the direction was given to the Hebrews (but NOT the nations) in order for them to continue observing the Passover (yes, the Jewish "christians" STILL observed their customs and traditions, as Paul did and directed them to do!)... there is a danger in meeting together as you and so many others suggest. What danger? That danger that, eventually, someone is going to want... or be asked... "to take the lead." You know... for "order"... "organization"... "shepherding of the sheep"... and all of those other "reasons." But, per Christ, this is a HUGE "no-no." Did you not read that when the Shepherd was struck... the sheep would SCATTER?
Paul (and others) taught things like God giving ones as "teachers." Yet, Christ, said, "Let none of you be called teachers." Paul (and others) taught things like "taking the lead among" us. Yet, Christ said, "Let none of you be leaders." And more like this.
So what? So, one has to decide: do they follow Paul (and many of the first century Body REFUSED to do so!)... or do they follow Christ? Do they "listen" to Paul (or others)... or do they listen to Christ?
Christ said, "Where TWO or more are gathered in my name... there I am, ALSO." So, there is no dictate that anyone has to "fellowship" with a large body of people.
they love one another
While loving one another is a "mark" of being a disciple of Christ, it does not prove one to be a disciple of Christ. The nations who are without Christ... love one another:
"For if YOU love those loving YOU , what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing?"
So, loving one another is subjective, dear one. The world loves those who belong to IT... yet, that does not make them members of the Body of Christ. One PROVES oneself to be a son of God... by loving one's enemies.
and follow Jesus.
Yet, how can that BE... if they don't even HEAR him? HOW are they following him? By listening to someone ELSE??
Not all Chrisitians in the first century shared the same gifts but they were all Christians nonetheless.
This is absolutely true. May I ask you, however, what were the gifts shared at THAT time? And how is it that they have apparently changed to other things... things that are NOT included in the gifts at that time... like shaking?
Dear one, we marvel at why unbelievers don't believe us. Because sometimes what we say... really isn't truth. It's just what we've been told by MEN is truth. If we want to know the REAL truth... we can't receive it from anyone other than the Truth. Christ. And that includes from me. Do NOT put your faith in what I share with you. Put your faith... in HIM... and what HE says... he who SPEAKS... even to YOU:
"See that YOU do not beg off from him who is speaking. For if they did not escape who begged off from him who was giving divine warning upon earth, much more shall we not if we turn away from him who speaks from the heavens."
The Holy One of Israel is alive, dear one. He WAS dead, true... but arose from that death. And speaks... to anyone with the faith to HEAR him. He is alive... and exerts POWER! He is NOT sitting, waiting... biding time... picking his nose. He is SUBDUING... teaching peace... to those who belong to him. And one does not need to be amidst a group of folks to hear him. Indeed, the "noise" of such a group may actually drown him out.
Just some things for you to think about, is all.
Again, I bid you peace!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
