Did Jesus resurrect Himself? (page 6)

PSacramento

You are, of course, entitiled to your opinion :)

Certainly one can say the same for the OT, perhaps even more so.

brotherdan

Please do your research.

I have. And there are numerous scriptures to support a bodily ressurection of Jesus.

He became the "First and the Last" in relation to the resurrection.

Jesus is the first and the last in the same way that "Jehovah" is spoken of as being the first and the last. Jesus is eternal. He is the beginning (or arche which means the ORIGIN or active CAUSE) of all creation. He created everything. An Old Testament prophet, speaking for the Lord, declared: “. . . I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no god” (Isa. 44:6).

There are many ways that Christ is the first and the last just as the Father is the first and the last as well. He is the firstborn (or emminent one) from among the dead.

As for Thomas' words... this is a language matter.

Are you speaking of Thomas referring to the nail marks in Jesus physical hands or are you talking about Thomas calling Jesus "God" in John 20:28? This is not a matter of language. He acknowledged that Jesus could rightly be called God. Jesus did not correct him as the angel did to John, when John fell down to commit an act of worship in Revelation 22:8. Jesus knew that he could rightly be called God, because he was EQUAL to God. (Please see John 5:18)

Anyway, Podobear, I have done extensive research on the subject. And while I don't want to say that the trinity is an inerrant truth (just yet), there are numerous referrences to it. In order to deny the bodily resurrection of Christ, you must attempt to say that the scriptures are not saying or meaning what they actually say. In order to deny the deity of Christ, you must do the same. For example, in Isaiah 6:5 the prophet said, "Mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts." Isaiah saw JEHOVAH! The Apostle John referred to this same event and made it very clear that the Person whom Isaiah saw was actually Jesus Christ: "These things said Isaiah, when he saw His [Christ’s] glory, and spake of Him (referring in the context to Christ)" – John 12:41.

tec

Shelby -

Thank you for helping to refresh my spirit this morning :)

Love and peace also to you and yours.

Tammy

Ding

Brotherday,

There's also Exodus 24:9-11: "Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made
of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank."

brotherdan

Ding, also Genesis 18:1-8 is interesting in that it speaks of Jehovah as speaking with and even eating with Abraham. The only way JWs get around this is by saying that it was ok to call the angel "Jehovah" because he was representing him. HUGE stretch.

"And Jehovah appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the earth, and said, My Lord, if now I have found favor in Thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from Thy servant: let now a little water be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: and I will fetch a morsel of bread, and strengthen Ye Your heart; after that Ye shall pass on: forasmuch as Ye are come to Your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes. And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it unto the servant; and he hasted to dress it. And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat."

GOrwell

brotherdan,

I had read it prior, but the John 12 and Isaiah 6 connection nearly blew my mind. John was explicit about who Isaiah saw and who he spoke about.

brotherdan

That's why you have to come to the conclusion that "Jehovah" is not just the Father", but it referrs to the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. In fact there are scriptures that referr to all three as being "Jehovah".

Podobear

If you represent someone brotherdan, you bear that person's name. "In the name of" does not mean you are that person. Please read Revelation 3 and the words to the church in Philadelphia. It refers clearly to Jesus bearing the name of Jehovah, just as the High Priests of Israel bore that name on the plates on their foreheads. It did not mean they were Jehovah himself.

I refer to John 20:28 which stumps any trinitarian argument. The Nominative here overrides any Vocative statement, lauding Jesus as being Jehovah himself.

Who says JW's deny the deity of Christ... he is "a" god.... not Almighty God. He is the representative of Almighty God and thus bears his name.

Equally, he was given total power over the resurrection after his death. (Read 1 Corinthians 15)

All the best.

brotherdan

You like to compare the nominative vs the vocative in the case of John 20:28. I think if you actually studied a greek grammatical textbook you could see that this is not an exclamation, but an address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative. This is a very common thing in the Koiné. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.

In fact according to Richard A. Young in his book "Intermediate New Testament Greek: A Lingustic and Exegetical Approach", he states that "About sixty times in the New Testament a nominative case noun is used to designate the person being addressed. The nominative functions like a vocative....The nominative of address is usually preceded by an article."

brotherdan

Also if you are to compare the text at John 20:28 and the JW interpretation of that to their interpretation of John 1:1 you come up with a very difficult problem. They like to say that because the definite article is not found in John 1:1, he could not have been calling Jesus God. However, in John 20:28 he DOES us the definite article. So according to JWs you must come to the conclusion that Thomas called Jesus, "My Lord and THE God" or... Jehovah.

Did Jesus resurrect Himself?

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