by brotherdan 143 Replies latest watchtower bible
"I lay down My life so that I may take it again."
Ok, question, here. If a person is lifeless, how can the take an action like taking back their life? Doesn't the ability to act require life, beforehand? This concept has always puzzled me. Other verses talk about him raising his body, ok, but not this one.
S
WhereamI, sent you a PM.
He was referring to his bodily life, Satan.
Satanus,
I think the answer is that there is a part of a person that survives physical death -- the soul and/or the spirit.
The WTS denies this, as we know...
Like Superman you can be in two places at the same time.
Wasn't that in the Christopher Reeves movie.
Brotherdan: What seems to be emerging from this discussion, is that Jehovah, our Father and that of Jesus Christ resurrected Jesus the man. Thereafter the power of the resurrection was entrusted to Jesus himself.
Not wishing to side track from the theme of the bodily resurrection I would respond to your comments on John 20:28 with the following:
Much is made of the exclamation by Doubting Thomas as though his words have some inspired credentials. There are, in fact, several views..
a) It is an exclamation in which Thomas refers to God;
b) Thomas addresses Messiah with legitimate designations - lord (master) god (Isaiah 9:6) or,
c) He refers to the Master Jesus and to the God of Jesus, the Father.
The other apostles have received the message throught Mary Magdelene "I have not yet ascended to.. My God and Your God.."
If Thomas addresses Jesus as god of a sort..that is with qualifications (as in John 1:1) - then clearly there appears to be Two gods - Christ and then his own God - the Father.
As for the nuances of difference in the Nominative and Vocative we do have a resident expert on the board... ISAACAUSTIN.
Perhaps Isaac' can shed further expert witness for us here, as this discussion is broad and intense and requires language buffs!
My level of knowledge rests with Latin. The use of the Vocative in Latin is a little less complex. I believe ISAACAUSTIN is a Koine Greek master.
All the best Dan... especially during these troubled times for you.
Podo
Actually, I've found it much easier to throw the whole damn book away...
I don't deem this a wise course of action. The Bible is a serious wealth of insight and raw moral philosophy. I think the Bible becomes illuminated once you toss the "Word of God" out the door.
Let me expand on my statement (now that Dan has trotted off and we can hi-jack the thread)... I agree that the Bible is a significant piece of literature. It's up there with Shakespeare, Chaucer or any other great works of writing.
As for a wealth of insight and raw moral philospophy, it's great for creating debates among believers and rational folks. Is god a god of rape and murder... or a god of love and mercy? And once you toss out the "word of god" crap, then it's llike arguing if Darth Vader was a sith lord of evil with no redeeming values or did the good aspect of force always reside in him?
The book is illuminating in one way - it shows just how gullible a lot of people are. Me included for the first half of my life. I spent that time believing it, reading it, studying it(as much as JW study of the bible really counts). I've actually studied it more once I awoke to the lies of the WTS than I did before. And as a result, I realize I'm wasting my time now that I know that it's just another book. And while it may be an influential book to many, a giant in the literary world, then like other works of fiction, I may pick it up once in awhile, I may read it a bit, but for the most part it spends time on the shelf collecting dust. I don't need to read it daily, refer to it or quote it constantly to publicly show my misplaced faith in an imaginary sith lord or galactic empire, um, I mean almighty god.
And if your lurking, reading this Dan; and it upsets your sensibilities... tough shit.
My course of action is neither wise nor unwise...it's just my choice. My life gains nothing...nor suffers... from ignoring the principles, myths, legends found in the bible. No more so than ignoring the principles, myths or legends found in the Lord of the Rings trilogy - which makes a better a movie, by the way...
what makes it a great literary work? just because its old?
what makes it a great literary work? just because its old?
The poetry, the history, the wise sayings, the parables, the fantastic events, the imagery, the culture, the peek into an ancient people and times...
Tammy
We have another example of the expression in Ignatius (early second century AD):
"For he suffered all these things for our sakes, in order that we might be saved, and he truly suffered just as he truly raised himself (aléthós anestésen heauton) -- not, as certain unbelievers say, that he suffered in appearance only (it is they who exist in appearance only!). Indeed, their gate will be determined by what they think: they will become disembodied and demonic. For I know and believe that he was in the flesh even after the resurrection, and when he came to Peter and those with him, he said to them: 'Take hold of me; handle me and see that I am not a disembodied demon.' And immediately they touched him and believed, being closely united with his flesh and blood" (Smyrnaeans 2:1-3:2).
It is interesting that in his refutation of docetism Ignatius used an expression that would later be disprefered, as speaking of Jesus "raising himself" smacks a little too much of modalism.
