Isn't that a movie about a boy and a whale? Or a "big fish" maybe?
What is Free Will really??
by SweetBabyCheezits 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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SweetBabyCheezits
All kidding aside, I take it the "free will" thread has been done numerous times before? I searched before I posted but didn't see any threads dedicated to the subject on the first couple of pages.
Anyway, I've yet to understand how the term "free will" applies to a love/worship/serve me or die ultimatum.
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darthfader
Free Will is a song by Rush... but I don' t think you meant that
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SweetBabyCheezits
No, but that's probably closer than my original post.
Great name, BTW.
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PSacramento
Free will is the ability to choose between choices.
Some can argure that there is no such thing as free will but I disagree, we always have a choice even if none of them are 100% desireable, there is always still a choice I think.
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journey-on
Free Will was a gift. When the Separation took place, the only thing that could complete it was to put the means in place for creation to make its own choices. Once this mechanism took effect, creation then had self-determination. It could work with or against the highter good, but either way the choice is its to make. We suffer the consequences or reap the rewards from our own choices as an individual and as a race.
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SweetBabyCheezits
So the term free will seems to be a contradiction of principle here. If you make a choice that god doesn't like, you pay a hefty price: eternal life (either dead or in hell). Choice is one thing and I understand consequences. But "free" doesn't fit.
I once had a public talk outline that emphasized free will. "God doesn't force us to do anything, he gives us free will," I would say convincingly, and the audience would nod in agreement.
But if a thief points a 9mm at your face and demands your wallet, you have a choice: hand over the wallet or call his bluff and risk everything. But to call that "free will" is a stretch. He is forcing you to hand over your wallet or else.
Free will, to me, might be more plausible if the bible said, "Okay, look, you're not going to be happy if you do this or that but that's totally your call. I won't punish you for choosing door A or B. Do as you like - I'm here for you either way. You're my child."
The concept of paying for mistakes with my life renders "free will" null and ridiculous, IMO.
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leavingwt
See the videos in the thread below.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/201609/1/God-the-Mafia-Boss
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leavingwt
I think it would be beneficial to note the Calvinist view of this matter.
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Overview of the Meaning of Free Will
If the ambiguity in the term Calvinism causes some confusion in many discussions on this topic, that is almost a drop in the bucket compared to the ambiguity in the term free will. Free will is a notoriously difficult concept to define. Though we all have some idea of what we think it means, these ideas are not easy to put into precise language. However, if we want to have a meaningful discussion about this subject, we absolutely must expend the effort to carefully analyze and explain what we really mean by it.
I believe our concepts of free will can roughly be broken down into two or three categories, which I will label as follows:
1) Absolute free will (sometimes called “libertarian” free will)This refers to the idea that man’s choices are his alone, and not ultimately controlled or determined by God. It is sometimes popularly described as “the power to choose or choose otherwise.” It can be further broken down into two subcategories:
1a) Open absolute free will
This refers to the idea that until a particular choice is made, that choice is completely “open,” meaning there is a real possibility for it to go either way. This implies that man’s choices are inherently “unknowable.” Not even God can know beforehand with absolute certainty what man will choose to do (although His knowledge of human nature gives Him the ability to make extremely accurate guesses). The reason for this is that if God infallibly knew in advance that some person would choose A instead of B, then that person’s choice would be inevitable and therefore not really “open.”
1b) Non-open absolute free will
This refers to the idea that God can foreknow exactly what choices man will make, and thus man’s choices are admittedly inevitable rather than “open,” yet man’s choices are still absolutely free in the sense that God can only foreknow them and influence them, but not ultimately determine them.
2) Compatibilistic free will
This refers to the idea that man’s choices are ultimately within the bounds of God’s sovereign control, yet they are free in the sense that God does not coerce man to choose against his will, but rather sovereignly determines what man wills in the first place. In other words, if some person chooses A instead of B, it was ultimately God’s decision that he would make that choice, and yet the choice was still free because the person made it willingly, not being coerced against his will. God made Him willing to make that choice.
In any discussion of free will, it is important to always identify which of these broad kinds of free will is being discussed, and not to ambiguously meander from category to category, or else the discussion will be meaningless. For example, Calvinist literature sometimes seems to both affirm and deny that man has free will, and unless we understand which kind of free will is being affirmed and which kind is being denied, this will seem contradictory.
Generally speaking, then, Calvinists affirm that man has compatibilistic free will, but deny that man has absolute free will.Arminians and most other non-Calvinist believers affirm that man has absolute free will in the non-open sense, but deny that he has absolute free will in the open sense. And recently there has also been a rise in the popularity of certain decidedly unbiblical theologies such as Open Theism and Process Theology which affirm that man has absolute free will in the open sense. -
PSacramento
The concept of paying for mistakes with my life renders "free will" null and ridiculous, IMO.
Why? the point is you have a choice and the choice is yours, you are free to make a choice based on the available options.
Your issue seems to be that you don't think the choices are fair so I ask you, "who told you life is fair?".
;)