by SweetBabyCheezits 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
"God doesn't force us to do anything." That, in it's simplicity, is erroneous to me.
This gets back to the video, in which Matt speaks of God as being like a Mafia boss. He will break your legs if you don't pay him the protection money. Where is the "free will" in this scenario?
Nice points, JWFacts.
LWT, I'll check out those videos when I can access at home. Like a Mafia boss indeed.
Paul, this debate has nothing to do with fairness. It has to do with a contradicton and misapplication of terms, IMO. Rephrasing that, I don't see how you can apply the word "freedom" to a choice in which one of the two options is a death sentence if the subject is aware of that punishment and he truly believes in those options. That would be coercion, would it not?
Nope, choice is choice, you may not like the choice but it is up to YOU to choose or NOT to choose or even to make a different choice then the ones presented.
Would you say the mugger in my earlier illustration was really giving me freedom of choice?
Someone mugs you and pulls a gun and "asks" you for money, you have the choice to:
Give it to him
Not give it to him
Shove the gun up his ass
Run
Do nothing
etc, etc...
The freedom you have is to choose WHICH options to go with.
Free will, and what we are really discussing in PRACTICAL terms is the ability to choose like it was said before, means that you HAVE a choice and it is YOUR choice.
Every choice we make comes with a consequence, the "free" part doesn't mean "free of consequences", it means that nothing is stopping us from choosing.
This gets back to the video, in which Matt speaks of God as being like a Mafia boss. He will break your legs if you don't pay him the protection money. Where is the "free will" in this scenario?
I think that IF God was a God of "do this or I will kill you", you would be right.
If God was a God of, "even before you are born I will decide if you are to be "mine" or not", then God would indeed removes THAT portion of free will from us, since he would have predetermined THAT fate for us even before we were born.
Mighty big IF's I think.
We are only truly free when we accept that we will die and that will be the absolute end for each of us.
Accepting that we will die no matter what we do, means that we can live as we truly wish to. Knowing that we are mortal allows us to make choices without being influenced by trying to investing in an afterlife.
If we live in the hope of gaining the approval of a god, or any other being who can reward us, our choices will always be influenced by our desire to please that being. Jesus is reported to have said many times that he lived to carry out his fathers will not his own; that to follow him one had to become a slave. Muslims tell the same story with regard to Allah.
Free will is the possesion of free men and women who know that the only reality is now and how we spend it our choice.
If we live in the hope of gaining the approval of a god, or any other being who can reward us, our choices will always be influenced by our desire to please that being. Jesus is reported to have said many times that he lived to carry out his fathers will not his own; that to follow him one had to become a slave. Muslims tell the same story with regard to Allah.
You make a valid point, no doubt.
I just want to remind that Grace means that we don't do anything to "please God so we can be saved", we are saved by our faith in God, n ot because of anything we do. That grace is what compells us ( or should) to do good things out of love, with no thught of recompense.
To be a slave of Christ is to be a slave to love and to do Christ and God's will is to live our life with love and fellowship with all.
Not such a bad thing is it?
Someone mugs you and pulls a gun and "asks" you for money, you have the choice to:
Give it to him
Not give it to him
Shove the gun up his ass
Run
Do nothing
etc, etc...
The freedom you have is to choose WHICH options to go with.
C'mon, Paul, you even have to distort my illustration to make this work? What does that tell you? A thief is demanding your wallet while pointing a gun at your head. Oh sure, we could create numerous other "options" that would get you killed. But it boils down to the fact that you either give him your wallet or you don't. Refusing to give him your wallet (or doing nothing) is death by default in this scenario, okay? You can't karate chop his bullet. (Unless you're Chuck Norris, and even then it would be a roundhouse.)
Every choice we make comes with a consequence, the "free" part doesn't mean "free of consequences", it means that nothing is stopping us from choosing.
Really? So right now we have freedom of speech. What if that right was taken away? Sure, we could speak out against the government if we wanted to, but suppose we would be punished for it. Choice would still be there but with that fear of punishment influencing our speech, the freedom is gone. The same applies here.
I think that IF God was a God of "do this or I will kill you", you would be right.
Ok, so I'm right then. Or was the flood account, among many others, just a myth? Because if I remember correctly the options were:
I am confused, are you arguing that there is no free will because the choice suck? or because they choices suck that there is no free will?
I don't think I distorted your example, I am trying to understand your POV, truly.
At this point I don't get it...you seem to be arguing that because we have limited choices or crappy choice that this proves there is no free will? yes?
Really? So right now we have freedom of speech. What if that right was taken away?
But do we have a right to eternal life?
Tammy
