Loftus: Are We Angry Atheists?

by leavingwt 237 Replies latest jw friends

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    if Norwegian then there is a 70% chance. The secular movement is gaining ground just about everywhere, just not so much in the US.

    70%! I did not know this - interesting. That must be about the highest in the world - I suspect higher even than under Soviet communism.

    These are questions that (probably) can't be answered, so I'd agree that it would be foolish to insist on one view to the exclusion of others.

    Yes. Insist was really the word for what I meant - in the sense that it might be interesting to speculate on the world today without religion in its past, but in the end pointless as we cannot really prove anything, nor can we go back. Which makes whether religion on the whole helped more than it hurt a moot point - one not worth getting angry or self-rightous over on either side.

    I will again say that obvious wrongs in the name of "religion" can and should be stopped by society, as LeavingWT has suggested. But this means to me stopping real harm or abuse - not just trying to kill a belief system, no matter how illogical it is to unbelievers.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Depends on your context. If you are American, then yes, because only 10% of the US population is estimated to be "without faith". If you are Dutch then there is a 40% probability that you are atheist, if Norwegian then there is a 70% chance. The secular movement is gaining ground just about everywhere, just not so much in the US.

    Most, if not all, secular laws are based on/originated from religious laws.

    Sure we can "salad bar" religion and take what we need ( Laws, morals and ethics) and disreagrd the rest ( Theisim), but we still have to acknoweldge from where the "good stuff" came.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    Two comments

    1. That chart has another large error, it leaves out the very large contribution made by Islamic (Arabic) scholars up to say the end of the 12th or 13th centuries. It seems that, not only did scholars of that era rescue previous Greek scholarship (which had often built on ancient Egyptian science and medicine) but they led subsequent scientific progress. Toby Huff writes in his well-regarded, ' The Rise of early Modern Science - Islam, China and the West,' (Cambridge University Press-2003). (You can find a -limited page- copy on google books):

    Quote from p.48

    "... from the eighth century to the 14th century, Arabic science was probably the most advanced science in the world, surpassing the West and China. In virtually every field of endeavour - in astronomy, alchemy, mathematics, medicine and optics ... Arabic (i.e. using the Arabic language, but possibly Iranian or even Jewish) scientists were in the forefront."

    2. My second point is that it is not true that Christianity was not present in China in both the early and medieval era's. The Church of the East, also called the Nestorians, are definitely attested in China as early as the seventh century, (Tang dynasty) and were given permission to build monastries in a number of provinces. They disappeared during the clampdown on foreign religions (which included Buddhism) aprrox. two hundred years later. They were again present in China during the (Mongolian) Yuan dynasty but were seen as too close to the Mongols and were again expelled. During the Yuan dynasty there were also representives of the Catholic church in both north and south China, one at least has written of the generosity of the Imperial administration toward them, and then again in the Sixteenth century, the Jesuits gained permission to have a mission in Beijing, and down in the south in Fujian and Guangdong the Dominicans infiltrated from the Phillipines which the Spanish had annexed. Conflict between the two orders, again brought government bans.

    It is quite clear that the opportunity for mass conversion was there, but did not happen. Why? I suggest that Christianity just did NOT appeal to the Chinese mindset based on Confucianism and Daoism. Buddhism became accepted because Buddhists were prepared to adjust their concepts to the patterns of Chinese thought. It is also true, that China changed Buddhism and a profusion of new schools of Buddhism arose, of which Chan (which the Japanese also adopted and called it Zen) has become the most well-known.

  • Nickolas
    Nickolas

    Sure we can "salad bar" religion and take what we need ( Laws, morals and ethics) and disreagrd the rest ( Theisim), but we still have to acknoweldge from where the "good stuff" came.

    "If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

    So, if you agree that you would not be a moral person in the absense of religion, then you are the kind of person that is best avoided, just in case you one day see the light and realise that there is no God. If, on the other hand, you claim that you would still be a good person without God looking over your shoulder, then you have undermined your argument that religion is necessary for society to be good. I say the "good stuff" was inate to evolving mankind. Not killing, raping, stealing, cheating and otherwise screwing over your neighbour was what allowed civilisation to develop, not religion.

  • ziddina
    ziddina
    "I do nto call myself and atheist, although I could be described that way. I prefer to call myself a 'post-christian'. That is, I was a Christian, but I've moved on. ..."

    Cool, FullTimeStudent!!! I LIKE that!!!

    May I use it, too???

    Zid

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    It is quite clear that the opportunity for mass conversion was there, but did not happen. Why? I suggest that Christianity just did NOT appeal to the Chinese mindset based on Confucianism and Daoism.

    There was also the problem of the traditional (biblically based) date the Jesuits gave for the flood. The Chinese had a written description of their emporers back to at least 600 years before this date (including correct dates for astronomic events such as eclipses) and had no record of a world-wide flood.

    Jesuit priest Martini in 1651 realized that this chronology was a serious threat to the authority of the bible, went back to the Vatican, and began research into the Chinese texts. He felt that they were far superior in detail and accuracy to any other record - including the Hebrews. His book on the Chinese history was finally presented in 1654 and not suprisingly was met with an extremely hostile response.

    OK, back on topic...

  • Nickolas
    Nickolas

    Richard Holloway, who up until 10 years ago was the Primus of the Anglican Church in Scotland, refers to himself as "an expectant agnostic". I like that one, too.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    So, if you agree that you would not be a moral person in the absense of religion, then you are the kind of person that is best avoided, just in case you one day see the light and realise that there is no God. If, on the other hand, you claim that you would still be a good person without God looking over your shoulder, then you have undermined your argument that religion is necessary for society to be good. I say the "good stuff" was inate to evolving mankind. Not killing, raping, stealing, cheating and otherwise screwing over your neighbour was what allowed civilisation to develop, not religion.

    Because we don't see any killing and raping and stealing and cheating, etc when religious morals and God are removed from socieity and government?

    Because history has NOT shown us that at all, quite the contrary according to just the 20th century ( Stalin, Mao, Po, etc, etc)

    But my point was that it is all fine and dandy to "leave religion" behind now that we have the fruits of it, as many choose to do, lets just not forget where those fruits came from.

  • Nickolas
    Nickolas

    Because history has NOT shown us that at all, quite the contrary according to just the 20th century ( Stalin, Mao, Po, etc, etc)

    Classic psychopaths all. Perfect examples of people who would have required religion not to be embodiments of evil.

    But my point was that it is all fine and dandy to "leave religion" behind now that we have the fruits of it, as many choose to do, lets just not forget where those fruits came from.

    One has to wonder how the Israelites were capable of wandering around the desert for so many years as a cohesive civilisation before Moses came down from the mountain with those tablets. The Ten Commandments codified what was already being generally practiced. Those fruits were already there for the picking.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    One has to wonder how the Israelites were capable of wandering around the desert for so many years as a cohesive civilisation before Moses came down from the mountain with those tablets. The Ten Commandments codified what was already being generally practiced. Those fruits were already there for the picking.

    Quite, those Laws were indeed being practiced and yet they needed to be "codified" and "written in stone", which goes to show how fast and loose they must have played with those laws.

    It is an intersting debate, if morals were always there and religion just "codified" them or if religion gave "birth" to them, not sure if we will ever know one way or another, but archelogical finds are telling us that they seemed to "progress" together in some for or another.

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