by Nickolas 202 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
OTWO - I thought Shelby's last post to you (the last big one) was loving
Tammy, don't ever change your rosy outlook. Yes, sometimes tough love and straightforwardness seems like unloving attacks while condescending tones with "may you have peace" mixed in help disguise the crap.
I am the truth. The truth is within me. I'm a very truthful person. Especially since leaving the lies of the itnesses 7 years ago
What a love fest. Tec, myelaine and Shelby, I find it kind of hard to follow you guys sometimes.(or would you rather I referred to you as girls or ladies? It's just that most women I know don't like to be called ladies and saying you women might be perceived as prejudicial).
When I can't follow what you're saying I tune out. I'm no bible scholar but I studied hard with the Witnesses for two years and then studied the bible for a year on my own when I took my first job as a logger. That was 35 years ago, just after I graduated university. I've been living with a Jehovah's Witness for more than 32 years of our 37 year marriage. You can do the math. I've been where scriptural vernacular is being used freely, as if there's nobody else in the room. It's kind of rude. If you want to quote scripture, fine. It's the nature of the board. But when you guys get preachy like you're prosthelytizing to an audience I think it is about as appropriate as me using language from the bush camps that might cause you to be a bit uncomfortable. I think you guys are out of bounds, but I'm open to arguments to the contrary. Just please don't preach to me.
Just so we're clear, my interest in being a member of this board is developing the knowledge and skill required to help people see the need for themselves to leave the Watchtower. That's my interest. I'm never going to believe what you believe, as much as I appreciate, honour and encourage your right to believe it. That doesn't mean I don't like you. I think we are all not friends of the Watchtower, and that makes us friends. I'm talking like a man to you and sometimes men speak a different language from women, and I know atheists speak a different language from believers. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say. Imagine a calm, rational tone of voice, please.
You guys are believers.
I'm a non-believer and I fully recognise that fact written above but my head still can't get into your headspace, no matter how hard you or I try. I don't think I'm going out too far on a limb to speak for atheists as a whole. Our heads are into logic, reason and evidence and right or wrong we regard Faith as accepting things on their face value, and we are just not capable of doing that. You can't get into our headspace because you can't fathom life without Jesus. It does not compute. Even if you allowed your mind to go there it would be like imagining your child being run over by a train. It would scare hell out of you just thinking about it. Jesus is a loving, living being to you. You love Him with all your heart and you can't imagine life without Him. What you need to realise, really realise, is we don't believe He exists. Trying to have a rational conversation on subjects like these in a forum where there are both hard-core Christians and hard-core atheists is like a group of Chinese trying to have a rational conversation with a group of Greeks. Not gonna happen. It doesn't mean we can't talk a common language and still be friends. However, if the thought of being my friend bothers you, then I won't be offended if you refrain from communicating with me. Live and let live.
It bothers me that AGuest said: I don't fear YOUR message... which has without a doubt led some to their literal death: many, who cannot bear to think that there is no God, let alone live without one, have taken their own lives. Notice the caps? I found that pretty heavy. Maybe even crossed a line. You just don't know who you're talking to, so sometimes its best to be a little more circumspect. I wonder if Shelby's ever watched people she loved die, if she's ever had someone die in her hands while she's sucking the blood out of his lungs, spitting it out the smashed windshield while trying to keep him alive with CPR. I wonder if she's ever carried a dead man on a stretcher through the bush. She is saying MY message causes people to kill themselves because when the light goes on it scares them so badly they can't handle it. Ergo my question at the end of the starting post: can you handle the truth? I take death of others seriously. My own I'm not so worried about. I don't want you to have an epiphany if you can't handle it. For me, having my mind free of a god and the supernatural was a tremendous emancipation. And it doesn't make me want to end my life, it makes me want to enjoy it more. It's just too precious. Time is short, and being happy living it is all that matters. If you don't get it, or just don't want to get it, I'm more than ok with that.
I am open to hearing rational, logical, scientific, mathematical, physical and, yes, scriptural arguments that debunk Watchtower interpretation and doctrine but I'm not much interested in being preached to. I know you are trying to save people and all that but no thanks. If I start another thread, I'd welcome you to come on in and comment if you want to add to the conversation and everyone's enjoyment of it. If you want to hijack it, well I'd really appreciate it if you didn't.
Thanks.
Nick
Hey, bravo to that last post of Nickolas. Bravo.
Nick, you can refer to me as whatever you like (within reason of course). I don't get offended by a name as much as I might by the tone or inference. I was not aware of having preached to you, though. I get that this thread took on a life of its own, (kind of bound to, imo, with that title on this forum) but my first post on it was in direct response to something you said - and then we went on from there. But stating one's opinion and/or disagreeing with someone on a biblical or faith matter doesn't mean preaching. Even though I understand how it could be perceived as being just that.
I actually like the atheist/Christian polar opposites on this forum. Most of us get along, and we also gain understanding of one another - which hopefully helps to at least ease certain bias's. I know that when I first started, I thought all atheists were angry and insulting and condescending. That is my RL experience. I am pleased to now know that while this might sometimes be the case, it is just as often NOT the case. I would hope that the atheists on the board have that same understanding.
And I have absolutely no problem at all being your friend, regardless of your beliefs.
Tammy
Oh, and I'll do my best not to hijack any of your threads. But I do often get caught up in whatever is currently being discussed in a thread, despite the opening post. After Garyneal said something, I did go back and voice my thoughts on the op, btw. You probably missed it in light of everything else :)
Tammy
It bothers me that AGuest said: I don't fear YOUR message... which has without a doubt led some to their literal death: many, who cannot bear to think that there is no God, let alone live without one, have taken their own lives. Notice the caps? I found that pretty heavy.
My apologies, dear Nickolas, if my words offended you because I included caps. I type VERY fast and so sometimes choose caps over, say, italics. I meant the message that there is no God.
Maybe even crossed a line. You just don't know who you're talking to, so sometimes its best to be a little more circumspect.
Funny... that doesn't seem to apply to people who address me. Why is that, exactly?
I wonder if Shelby's ever watched people she loved die
Yes, I have. One, I made the call. And one almost (I posted about that, recently).
if she's ever had someone die in her hands while she's sucking the blood out of his lungs, spitting it out the smashed windshield while trying to keep him alive with CPR.
No, I haven't. Praise JAH. And my sincere condolences to anyone who has. But watching a loved one die... is pretty much watching a loved one die. Sucks... no matter how it happens IMHO.
I wonder if she's ever carried a dead man on a stretcher through the bush.
No, I haven't. Sat for close to 2 weeks in a hospital room, though with my dying 10-year-old son, then flew with him in a tiny airplane to a hospital that did surgery to remove a massive "mass" of "abdominal cancer" (which turned out not to be, afterall). My son who hadn't recognized me in days because the fever that was trying to burn up the "infection" in his body has caused him to go temporarily blind...
She is saying MY message causes people to kill themselves because when the light goes on it scares them so badly they can't handle it.
It is true, dear Nickolas. Unpalatable... unsavory... undesirable... but very true.
Ergo my question at the end of the starting post: can you handle the truth?
And my answer: I can, yes. Some, obviously cannot handle what you say is truth. Not my fault - I just pointed it out.
I take death of others seriously. My own I'm not so worried about.
You and I are in agreement here, as to both...
I don't want you to have an epiphany if you can't handle it.
You, perhaps. Others don't necessarily care if the one they're addressing can handle it. In their minds, they SHOULD and if they can't, they're "weak" and "stupid." You should review some of the threads here that say just that... verbatim, even.
For me, having my mind free of a god and the supernatural was a tremendous emancipation.
Wonderful! I do not fault or judge you, not at all!
And it doesn't make me want to end my life, it makes me want to enjoy it more. It's just too precious. Time is short, and being happy living it is all that matters. If you don't get it, or just don't want to get it, I'm more than ok with that.
Funny... being in the Truth that is Christ the EXACT same thing for me... and I feel EXACTLY the same way! Yet, I get ridiculed for saying it does not matter to me if ones "get" it or not. Exact same thing, IMHO. Only difference I can see is that I don't think you're weak or stupid for believing... or not believing... what you do or don't. Lacking in faith? Perhaps. But I, too, once lacked faith. That I say so isn't a judgment of you or anyone else. It is just a statement of what IS. Just as much as your conviction leads YOU to make a statement as to what YOU believe ISN'T.
I am open to hearing rational, logical, scientific, mathematical, physical and, yes, scriptural arguments that debunk Watchtower interpretation and doctrine but I'm not much interested in being preached to.
I did not preach to you, dear Nick. I answered a couple of questions that YOU posed. You were MORE than welcome to dismiss, disregard, even skip over my responses.
I know you are trying to save people and all...
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Goodness, NO. Well, okay, I AM trying to save myself... and MY household... and we are people... but that's really all I CAN try to save. By his faith, Noah saved no one's household... but his own. By his faith, Abraham saved no one's household... but his own. Lot saved no one's household... but his own. Rahab saved her household and no other. I really don't know how else to say this... than to just say it. Which I have done on numerous occasions... and over many years.
that but no thanks.
No need to thank me: I haven't done anything... other than what I ought to have done...
If I start another thread, I'd welcome you to come on in and comment if you want to add to the conversation and everyone's enjoyment of it.
Why, thank you! If there is cause to, I certainly will!
If you want to hijack it, well I'd really appreciate it if you didn't.
Okay, I have to go take another look but I don't think *I* hijacked your thread, dear one. Indeed, in at least one instance I ASKED the poster to start another thread. Because she apparently did see that request... or has refused to honor it (which I believe is the case because she's never, ever honored any previous request of the kind that I've made to her). But for the most part, I simply responded to comments either addressed to me... or containing comments/content about me. May I ask... why didn't YOU direct such posters to take their issues with me elsewhere... rather than blaming me for the direction your thread has taken? I think that would have been the honest thing to do... if you were truly offended by the direction... versus blaming me.
Thanks. Nick
You're quite welcome... and back in a sec. I really would like to see just when/where this thread took its "turn" and whether I was actually the culprit. If so, I absolutely apologize. If not... well, sigh, no apology necessary. I realize that it does take a lot out of some of you to do that. So, I won't ask you to.
Again, peace to you...
A slave of Christ,
SA
Shelby, why don't you just go away? Thanks.
Nope. Wasn't me who hijacked the thread, dear Nickolas (again, peace to you!). Every post from ME appeared to have something to do with either the OP or comments/statements made between you and I subsequently that related to the OP. The thread appears to veer off, however, once or twice, when certain posters took issue with me, my style, my faith, my honesty, integrity, etc. I mean, I would have hoped that such ones would have had the courtesy... and wherewithall... to take their issue with me to an entirely different thread (but that would mean they would have to dedicate/address one to me and, Lord, we can't have THAT, can we?)... rather than hijack this one (and, again, I did ask for that), but since you didn't ask... or direct them to... and it is your thread, I responded as addressed (or accused, either way). What would you have me do?
But I get it: it's easier to blame me, who doesn't necessarily agree with you, but was never unkind to you... than risk losing fans. Even if they're hateful... and deceitful. No worries, though, dear one; I've grown used to it. It is, after all, a very normal human reaction, truly.
So, okay, I really am moving on, now. For those of you who wish to pick at me or point the finger toward me further, I would kindly ask you to do so in separate threads, from here on. Because it really IS unfair to the OP'r that my name keeps coming up on threads that I didn't start, am having discussiongs with others but maybe not you, haven't commented on, and/or have absolutely no involvement in whatsoever. And it's wicked when you sit back and let me be blamed because you couldn't resist.
As always, peace to you all! Even you blasphemers (heck, why not...)
A slave of Christ,
SA... who doesn't mind being called girl, gal, lady, woman... or what have you as she's really not that sensitve... and who's going to take HER "ball" now, and... well, go find some other "kids" to "play" with...
P.S. I "see" you, dear tec... and you, too, dear Inkster!
"Shelby, why don't you just go away? Thanks."
And with that...
