"Are you In the Truth?"

by Nickolas 202 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Vanderhoven7

  <<The story of Jesus of Nazareth is one of the most beautiful ever told and that is why it has endured two millenia, but it is still a story that cannot be substantiated beyond the realm of faith.>>

  Much in history cannot be substantiated beyond the realm of faith....but not necessarily beyond reason.

  Was it a self-styled fabricated story about the resurrection that changed the disciples from cowards to willing marytrs?

  "What caused them to go everywhere telling the message of the risen Christ?

  Had there been any visible benefits accrued to them from their efforts--prestige, wealth, increased social status or material benefits--we might logically attempt to account for their actions, for their whole-hearted and total allegiance to this "risen Christ ."

  As a reward for their efforts, however, (they).... were beaten, stoned to death, thrown to the lions, tortured and crucified. Every conceivable method was used to stop them from talking.

  Yet, they laid down their lives as the ultimate proof of their complete confidence in the truth of their message."

  The disciples were "in the truth" and they gave their lives for that truth.

  "The most beautiful story ever told", the most life changing story ever told...is truth.

  Vander
• 

  Nickolas

  Much in history cannot be substantiated beyond the realm of faith....but not necessarily beyond reason.

  Well, Vander, I cannot agree with you, once again, at least generally. The largest, and by far most important difference between scripture and history is the degrees to which each are credible, observable and repeatable.

  If the historical account says that Hannibal took a bunch of war elephants over the Alps to invade Rome during the second Punic war, I might be impressed, I might be doubtful, I might even think that the account was fabricated (which, as we know, happens with historical accounts - ever hear the expression "history is written by the victors"?). But I cannot say it is impossible because it is repeatable. As heroic and arduous a task it is to drive an elephant over a mountain range, it is still within the realm of the possible. It can be repeated, it can be observed, therefore it is credible. It still might be bullshit, but that's the beauty of history. You are free to interpret it and accept or reject it for yourself.

  On the other hand, if the scriptures tell me that Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, that he walked on water, that he exorcised demons, cured the blind, turned water into wine, did all those supernatural things, why should I believe it to be true any more than I should believe that Mohammed and the Archangel Gabriel flew to Jerusalem one night on a winged horse? Christians believe the Jesus stuff, Muslims believe the Mohammed stuff, I believe neither because they are not within the realm of the possible. They cannot be repeated, they cannot be observed, therefore they are not credible. However, and here's the key difference between history and holy writings, because the Qu'ran and Bible each says it is true you must as a believer actually believe it is true.
• 

  Nickolas

  Shelby, there is so much in your posts that cry out for debunking that I am overwhelmed. Where to start? Maybe the better question is Why bother? If you are convinced that the sky is orange, then I will not be able to convince you that it is blue. It could very well be that the rods in your eyes are configured such that your visual cortex interprets the wavelength of light that I (and most of the rest of the world) see as blue in a different way. No matter how much I tell you it is blue, it will always be orange to you. Same goes for your cerebral processes and mine. You and I don't think the same way, we can certainly agree on that, so maybe we shouldn't bother trying to get one another to see the same things.

  That said, the lease on your soapbox has not yet expired, although you should not be offended if I just skim over your contributions looking for variations in the theme.
• 

  jay88

  What does it mean, when you have to breakdown any objections to your belief's as if you are a defense attorney?
• 

  Nickolas

  Those who are in the truth exibit moral integrity

  I don't mean to pick on you, Vander, and as much as I really need to get some workd done, I can't leave this one alone. I had to come back and answer you. There are plenty of morality lessons in the Bible provided by God - assuming here that you equate the word of God to truth. The book of Numbers tells how God incited Moses to attack and destroy the cities of the Midianites. His army had no trouble slaying all the men, and they burned all the Midianite cities to the ground, killing also all the Midianites' domestic animals, but they didn't kill the women and children. This merciful restraint by his soldiers infuriated Moses, and he gave orders that all the boy children should be killed along with all the women who were not virgins. It was Moses' concluding sop to his slaughtering army that I remember best: 'But all the girl children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves' (Numbers 31:18). Yup, that's moral integrity alright. What about the story of Lot? He's being visited by a couple of angels and a crowd of men gather outside his door demanding that he put them outside so they can take turns buggering them. Lot says no, but take my daughters to gang rape, instead. Turns out he doesn't have to follow through because the angels strike the partygoers blind or something (can't remember) but it gets better. Lot and his two daughters, the ones he offered up to be raped, camp out together after the fire and brimstone stuff and Lot gets drunk, not once, but twice. And when he's into his cups he bangs each of his daughters and gets them pregnant. Lovely morality lesson, that. And then there's the story in Judges about some Levite priest staying with an man in Gibeah. Same shtick as Lot. Bunch of guys come to the door and they want to bugger the priest. The host says, please don't do that. Take my virgin daughter instead, and the priest's concubine. No angels to intervene this time. The two women are gang raped all night and left for dead on the doorstep in the morning. The priest is impatient with his concubine and orders her to her feet. She can't do it, because she's dead, so he takes his knife, cuts her into twelve pieces and carries them to all the coasts of Israel. (Judges 19:29).

  Your bible and your God have no morality lessons to teach to me. I am a good and moral man without either.
• 

  tec

  What does it mean, when you have to breakdown any objections to your belief's as if you are a defense attorney?

  That you finished law school, and passed the bar?

  Or that you copy/paste, then answer the sentences as if you were having an actual back-and-forth conversation?

  Or both, as the case may be?

  Tammy
• 

  AGuest

  Shelby, there is so much in your posts that cry out for debunking that I am overwhelmed. Where to start?

  My sincere apologies, dear Nickolas (again, peace to you!). I am verbose, I admit. But I did try to be concise in answering the original questions. Perhaps there is a good place to start? I mean, if you've a mind... and heart... to?

  Maybe the better question is Why bother?

  Well, only you can answer that. There is a LOT here, on this board and indeed in this thread, that conjures up the same question for me... frequently...

  If you are convinced that the sky is orange, then I will not be able to convince you that it is blue.

  Not true. If it IS blue... I will be convinced. Maybe not right away, but at some point. For one reason only: it is the truth.

  It could very well be that the rods in your eyes are configured such that your visual cortex interprets the wavelength of light that I (and most of the rest of the world) see as blue in a different way.

  Could be. But the truth is that it is not so much my eyes, dear one, as it is my ears. I do hear, unfortunately, on a keener level than most people (my husband would vouch for this if I let him "come out" here - but I won't. No WAY will I let him subject himself to what I am subjected to for my sake. He doesn't deserve it, at all. But, he would tell you that my hearing is "uncanny." Be that as it may, that is my physical hearing... which has nothing to do with my spiritual hearing. The first is just an anomaly of my particular body; the second... is faith. That's it, that's all).

  No matter how much I tell you it is blue, it will always be orange to you.

  Could be, but I think my history "debunks" that statement. For example, the WTBTS told me it was blue... no, red... whatever. I have come to know that it is not red at all. In coming to such knowledge, I also came to know that it isn't quite the blue you and others believe it to be, either. I think what you might be missing, however, is that I can say that it's orange... althought it APPEARS blue to YOU... because Someone, Christ... showed ME... that I was actually blind. That I had blinders over my eyes and so through the blinders the sky indeed appears to be "blue". But what you're really looking at IS in fact orange. Take the blinders off, however... or, rather, have them taken off... and you will see TRUE blue... and not a blue that is actually orange. Do you "see"? No, wait... you don't have to answer that...

  Same goes for your cerebral processes and mine. You and I don't think the same way, we can certainly agree on that,

  I think that's an accurate statement, as to both... but we can attribute that to a number of things and not just my faith or your lack of faith (and I don't mean that to be sarcastic or offensive - I meant it in the spirit that it IS what "separates" us, at least as to this discussion)...

  so maybe we shouldn't bother trying to get one another to see the same things.

  Dear Nickolas... please hear me when I say to you, truthfully, I really am not trying to get ANYONE to see anything. Threads are opened, questions are posed, posts are posted... comments, responses, and remarks are made. I participate and try to do so TRUTHFULLY. Whether others hear or refrain. I mean, we have been SO inundated with LIES about God and Christ... for SO long... wouldn't YOU, if Christ spoke to you and told you the TRUTH... share it with others? Even if they didn't believe you? Personally, I feel an obligation to do so. Just as a fellow human being. Many, perhaps even you, apparently feel "obligated" to tell their fellowman "You've been duped; there is no God." I, on the other hand, feel obligated to say... whether anyone is listening or not, "You may have been duped, but there is still a God. And He speaks to you. Through His Son. And you can hear Him. Through His Son. I do... and you can, too, if you truly wish to."

  I don't fear YOUR message... which has without a doubt led some to their literal death: many, who cannot bear to think that there is no God, let alone live without one, have taken their own lives. Some, along with the lives of others. You, however, seem to fear MY message: that there is a God and He speaks. Yet, no one has lost a life as a result. To the contrary, some... perhaps only a few, but some... have actually come TO Life. By coming TO that One as a result of what I share. Was it because I, flesh and blood, revealed the truth of what I shared to them? No. It was because, as my Lord once said... and such ones say themselves... because God revealed it to them.

  That said, the lease on your soapbox has not yet expired, although you should not be offended if I just skim over your contributions looking for variations in the theme.

  I absolutely am not and will not be offended, dear one! Not in any way or at all. See, people get offended at such a thing when it's really all about them. They want... need... corroboration, validation, justification, even response. That is not the case with me, at all. I put it out there. You are MORE than welcome to read, not read, agree, disagree... whathaveyou. Contrary to what some say, here, I truly do NOT have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me... whether it's something I've posted "on my own" or as directed by my Lord. The TRUTH is that there are many who have a problem that I... disagree/don't agree... with them. Some even seem to WANT me to... even NEED me to. And I don't get that, at all. I mean, if you HAVE the truth... how can what I say/agree/disagree with matter... at ALL? Why SHOULD it?

  What does it mean, when you have to break down any objections to your belief's as if you are a defense attorney?

  LOLOLOLOLOL! Since I didn't pass the bar, yet, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!)... and haven't decided whether to retake it as I am not all that impressed with most of the attorneys I now know and/or went to school with... it would have to be your second response as to me - . Well, that, and the fact that I HATE it when someone says I stated something I didn't... or that they didn't state something they did... etc.

  I respond as I do, dear jay88 (peace to you, as well!), in order to remain as accurate, honest, and truthful as I can. Things often get "lost in translation," even "twisted"... and so I think I owe you... and everyone else here that accuracy, honesty, and truth... at the very least. If nothing else, it fulfills my debt of love to you... in that I don't lie to you. Whatever I think/feel/believe... is out there. Without alteration, adulteration, or deviation.

  I bid you all peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA... stepping down, now -
• 

  tec

  Since I didn't pass the bar, yet, dear tec

  Oops. My bad :)

  Tammy
• 

  myelaine

  dear AGuest...

  you said: "Yet, you think you and I are "brothers"... and in Christ. Where do you GET that from? I do not consider you brother in Christ..."...

  I have never said nor thought that we were brothers in Christ...

  here's a quote from your pm to me...your words are in caps:The Holy Spirit has spoken to many throughout the ages and has led them into all truth...that truth is like a hedge around them. It is no surprise (because we have been warned in the bible) that in these last days of this system of things that evil spirits would try even harder to lead us away from the truth
  
  AND WHAT IS THE TRUTH, MICHELLE?
  
  ...and that is, I'm afraid, has happened to you.
  
  YOU "FEAR" IS UNFOUNDED AND PATHETIC. IT IS EXACTLY WHAT THOSE OF THE WTBTS SAID AND SAY. YET, I AM THE ONLY ONE SAYING TO LISTEN TO CHRIST... THE TRUTH. YOU AND OTHERS SAY LISTEN TO THE BIBLE. WHO IS MISLEADING YOU, MICHELLE?

  so...my concern for you and your fate is PATHETIC...

  thank you for your time spent in reply to me...rev. 12:15...as always, it is most revealing.

  love michelle
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Perhaps you should consider that, just like you were wrong then... you are wrong now. I mean, it's not like you haven't BEEN wrong before.

  I would say Shelby is probably wrong now. But I won't bother. It is 100% obvious that you don't believe your own crap. You have been proven wrong and contradicting on here again and again. You are not schizophrenic or in contact with the Holy Spirit. You are a slinger of bullcrap, just as bad as any troll.

  Otherwise, you have violated what the Holy Spirit has commanded you again and again by responding to me. Please go back to ignoring me, I liked it better.

  And yes, I could be wrong about that. You could really have deluded yourself and actually believe yourself and caused yourself to have a condition similar to schizophrenia.

  At one time, you did. For quite some time, too. At one time the fact that the Most Holy One of Israel "didn't" speak to you or show Himself to you... wasn't even a problem. Indeed, you not only believed... but TAUGHT others... that He didn't speak... COULDN'T speak.

  I told my story. It was my mental condition that made me think God had some intervention in my life. I am much better now. Still, I leave room for being in error now, but truly mean that part about "...then who the hell wants to worship such a shitty divine power anyway that cannot or does not make itself known?"

  He/She/It can show it's power if it wants to. I ain'ta scared.

  Jesus Christ claims to be the Way, the Truth and The Life. Why take your thoughts and Buddah's over Christ's?

  Vander

  Take whatever thoughts you want, Vander. I don't advocate following Buddha. Those were generic eastern philosophical thoughts that I have adapted. There are great generic philosophical thoughts in the Bible also. I don't expect anyone to accept the fairytale of reincarnation and nirvana without proof anymore than I expect anyone to accept the fairytale of the Gospels.

  Buddha, Christ, Thor, Zeus- I go back to: If such evidences are not provided, then such claims can be dismissed.

  Shelby offers no better than the con-men faith healers. If the trick doesn't work on somebody, the fault lies with their faith. I accept that such a fantasy could be reality, but then I go back to such a deity not being someone/something I would want to worship. I doubt that if a benevolent almighty creator did exist, it would want us to waste so much energy worshipping anyway. If it does, it will tell us how to worship, why we worship, when we worship, and it will do so clearly if it wants such worship.