If Genesis isn't taken literally, who's sin did Jesus die for?

by unshackled 106 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Ok so you're kinda making my point there darlin. Thanks

    Oh?

    There WERE historical records that haven't survived but the sources used like Ptolomey and Aristobulus and other military contemporaries were quoted in later works. There is also archeological evidence of Alexander's existence and conquests. Through all of this, historians disagree on some things and there is still a lot of speculation about what kind of person he was. The same could be said for Julius Caesar who wrote his own commentaries as well as many contemporary sources who wrote about him. And there are STILL a lot of historians who disagree about how things actually went down.

    I would HOPE that the greatest conqueror of the ancient world would have MORE evidence of his existence than a poor Jewish peasant, LOL !

    I think maybe you may have missed my point.

    The Jesus accounts are not nearly as reliable or diverse and by far the majority of evidence of Jesus comes from the NT which is fraught with allegory, parables and such so questioning who he truly was is par for the course if you want to prove anything...and that requires putting away all preconceived notions and really examining the historical record.

    I have no issues with anyone questioning the existence of Christ or even the validity of NT documents, none at all actually.

    And I would hope that when people do question and research the historic Jesus they do within the context of his historic time and with the same MO as they would any other historical figure of that time.

    Jesus was not a king or emperor, he was not the head of a revolution or started a revolt of slaves, he was not a philosopher of reknown nor was he tutor to kings and sages, yet, here we are, talking about him and with historical records of his sayings, existence and such that rivals that of many kings, sages, philosophers and so forth.

  • Judge Dread
    Judge Dread

    I guess you will find that out when YOU die.

    JDW

  • unshackled
    unshackled
    Simple answer: Jesus, a fictional character, died for another fictional character in a good novel, the Bible.

    Yeah Sab...that is the simple answer. Wondered how one could reconcile evolution with christianity...but there's no reasoning with conclusion first thinking.

  • poopsiecakes
    poopsiecakes

    @ PSac: and the bible says he performed miracles. A lot of them. A whole lot of them. Wouldn't some other contemporary source have written anything about these wonders? That this man was able to do all of these things? The other issue is that there is ZERO contemporary evidence of his disciples.

    Jesus was not a king or emperor, he was not the head of a revolution or started a revolt of slaves, he was not a philosopher of reknown nor was he tutor to kings and sages, yet, here we are, talking about him and with historical records of his sayings, existence and such that rivals that of many kings, sages, philosophers and so forth.

    So this is what consitutes evidence? That we talk about him? Good grief, I'm not saying the physical man never existed - my dispute comes in with his deification and everything THAT entails. A lot of people quote Buddha and Mohammed but you don't believe that they should be prayed to or are even still living in any sense of the word. That's because you're a Christian (don't get me wrong, I respect you for that) and everything you believe hinges on Jesus being somehow more than human, but that no other human was ever more than human - no matter what millions of other people believe. Or do I have that wrong?

    The Romans and Greeks worshipped gods that were half men and most people nowadays know that was just a lot of superstition based on a lack of understanding of the physical universe. If you were to read someone posting on this board that they believe in Zeus or Hercules and worship them you'd think they were one toy short of a happy meal. And before you tell me that Zeus and Hercules have absolutely no basis in historical fact, I agree and I'll repeat that it's the notion that Jesus had a pre-human existance, was transplanted by god into a virgin, performed miracles and was resurrected to the spirit realm after 3 days. All of that sounds very Zeus-y to me once I dispelled my preconceived notions and examined the facts as they appear.

    Just sayin'

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Why do all men sin? Is it because of Adam, or is it a defect in creation?

    We sin because the vessel we occupy, flesh with its blood... contains sin it in, dear Keyser (peace to you!). As a result, it is at odds with the man we are inside, which man is bound and contained by such vessel. This is why there is the term "willful" sin. Our bodies carry sin and thus death in them. This is manifest by our aging, getting sick, and dying.

    Our bodies also have various "desires"... that sometimes go against what our spirit wills (for example, alcoholism/addiction). It betrays us, particularly when we're very young, adolescent, sick, addicted, or aged. As a result, we often give "it" what it longs/cries for. In some way or another.

    Sometimes, though, we choose to do what we know is wrong... NOT because of the fight or betrayal of our bodies, but because of our own desire... which we COULD control... but CHOOSE not to. That is what occurred with Adam. It wasn't like he was hungry, or fooled/enticed... or just couldn't keep his hands off the fruit/tree because the fruit looked so "good". It wasn't a matter of "I just can't/couldn't help myself" with him. None of the yearnings of the flesh occurred with him... because, at the time, he didn't have that kind of flesh. Thus, HE made a active decision to sin... without having any kind of "fight" or misgivings or battle with his conscience.

    The creation was perfect. Our bodies are the anomaly that came about AFTER the creation. They are what resulted AFTER Adam sinned. When he sinned, he opened the way for sin and death to enter into this realm. Thus, he was given a "long garment of skin"... the body of flesh with ITS blood... which body comes with yearnings, desires, needs, cravings, disobedience, etc... but which BINDS the man inside. Prior to such "garment" Adam and Eve were FREE. Since, they became bound... and as a result, all of their offspring were bound.

    We are bound because we don't yet know how to live... as a FREE species. Look at what we do to one another. And please don't say that we wouldn't - those of us who at least TRY to do good do so because we have LEARNED good... at some point in our lives. Even Christ had to learn to choose the good and reject the bad, as a being who resided in such a vessel. Some learn it early; some never learn it. But we don't come into this world knowing and doing good to others. Two-year-olds will all but kill one another if put in a room alone with one toy. It is someone saying, "No, no, honey" that teaches them NOT to knock each other in the head with the Tonka truck... or scratch each others' eyes out.

    I hope this helps and again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    @ PSac: and the bible says he performed miracles. A lot of them. A whole lot of them. Wouldn't some other contemporary source have written anything about these wonders? That this man was able to do all of these things? The other issue is that there is ZERO contemporary evidence of his disciples.

    He was accused of sorcery and that is documented in some hebrew writing that I forget, sorry.

    As for contemporay evidence of his diciples, you have a point but the message would have had to have been spread somehow and I don't recall any historian casting doubt into the existence of Paul or John or any of the diciples that actually set up churches.

    So this is what consitutes evidence? That we talk about him? Good grief, I'm not saying the physical man never existed - my dispute comes in with his deification and everything THAT entails. A lot of people quote Buddha and Mohammed but you don't believe that they should be prayed to or are even still living in any sense of the word. That's because you're a Christian (don't get me wrong, I respect you for that) and everything you believe hinges on Jesus being somehow more than human, but that no other human was ever more than human - no matter what millions of other people believe. Or do I have that wrong?

    One can dsipute Christ's deity, I have no issues with that.

    Christ;s deity is a matter of faith for us, 2000 years later.

    The Romans and Greeks worshipped gods that were half men and most people nowadays know that was just a lot of superstition based on a lack of understanding of the physical universe. If you were to read someone posting on this board that they believe in Zeus or Hercules and worship them you'd think they were one toy short of a happy meal. And before you tell me that Zeus and Hercules have absolutely no basis in historical fact, I agree and I'll repeat that it's the notion that Jesus had a pre-human existance, was transplanted by god into a virgin, performed miracles and was resurrected to the spirit realm after 3 days. All of that sounds very Zeus-y to me once I dispelled my preconceived notions and examined the facts as they appear.
    Just sayin'

    Zeus and Heracles quick some serious butt, thunderbolts and bitch sklapping bulls and all that, I can see worshipping a kickass God like that.

    Makes one wonder the appeal of a crucified Jew preaching crazy talk like "love your enemy" and forgive people no matter how many times they wrong you.

  • poopsiecakes
    poopsiecakes

    Zeus and Heracles quick some serious butt, thunderbolts and bitch sklapping bulls and all that, I can see worshipping a kickass God like that.

    I do love you, buddy...

    Makes one wonder the appeal of a crucified Jew preaching crazy talk like "love your enemy" and forgive people no matter how many times they wrong you.

    Personally, I live by these principles more now than I did when I believed in Jesus or the god of the bible.

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    Somehow Jethro Tull's "A Passion Play" seems appropriate here:

    "Do you still see me even here?"
    (The silver cord lies on the ground.)
    "And so I'm dead", the young man said
    over the hill (not a wish away).
    My friends (as one) all stand aligned
    although their taxis came too late.
    There was a rush along the Fulham Road.
    There was a hush in the Passion Play.

    Such a sense of glowing in the aftermath
    ripe with rich attainments all imagined
    sad misdeeds in disarray
    the sore thumb screams aloud,
    echoing out of the Passion Play.
    All the old familiar choruses come crowding in a different key:
    Melodies decaying in sweet dissonance.
    There was a rush along the Fulham Road
    into the Ever-passion Play.

    And who comes here to wish me well?
    A sweetly-scented angel fell.
    She laid her head upon my disbelief
    and bathed me with her ever-smile.
    And with a howl across the sand
    I go escorted by a band of gentlemen in leather bound
    NO-ONE (but someone to be found).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3w6P6eNqLw

    All along the icy wastes there are faces smiling in the gloom.
    Roll up roll down, Feeling unwound? Step into the viewing room.
    The cameras were all around. We've got you taped; you're in the play.
    Here's your I.D. (Ideal for identifying one and all.)
    Invest your life in the memory bank; ours the interest and we thank you.
    The ice-cream lady wets her drawers, to see you in the passion play.

    Take the prize for instant pleasure, captain of the cricket team
    public speaking in all weathers, a knighthood from a queen.

    All of your best friends' telephones never cooled from the heat of your hand.
    from your hand.....
    There's a line in a front-page story, 13 horses that also-ran.
    also ran.....
    Climb in your old umbrella. Does it have a nasty tear in the dome?
    in the dome.....
    But the rain only gets in sometimes and the sun never leaves you alone,
    you alone.....
    you alone.....
    you alone.....
    you alone.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZaFwu6ynqk

    Lover of the black and white it's your first night.
    The Passion Play, goes all the way, spoils your insight.
    Tell me how the baby's made, how the lady's laid,
    why the old dog howls in sadness.

    And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away
    on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George
    who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
    (The examining body examined her body.)

    Actor of the low-high Q, let's hear your view.
    Peek at the lines upon your sleeves since your memory won't do.
    Tell me: how the baby's graded, how the lady's faded,
    why the old dogs howl with madness.

    All of this and some of that's the only way to skin the cat.
    And now you've lost a skin or two, you're for us and we for you.
    The dressing room is right behind, We've got you taped, you're in the play.
    How does it feel to be in the play?
    How does it feel to play the play?
    How does it feel to be the play?

    Man of passion rise again, we won't cross you out:
    for we do love you like a son, of that there's no doubt.
    Tell us: is it you who are here for our good cheer?
    Or are we here for the glory, for the story, for the gory satisfaction
    of telling you how absolutely awful you really are?

    There was a rush along the Fulham Road.
    There was a hush in the Passion Play.

    The Story Of The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RZzZpBCWRg

    This is the story of the hare who lost his spectacles.

    Owl loved to rest quietly whilst no one was watching.
    Sitting on a fence one day, he was surprised when suddenly a kangaroo ran close by.
    Now this may not seem strange, but when Owl overheard Kangaroo whisper to no one in particular,
    "The hare has lost his spectacles," well, he began to wonder.

    Presently, the moon appeared from behind a cloud and there, lying on the grass was hare.
    In the stream that flowed by the grass a newt.
    And sitting astride a twig of a bush a bee.

    Ostensibly motionless, the hare was trembling with excitement,
    for without his spectacles he appeared completely helpless.
    Where were his spectacles? Could
    someone have stolen them? Had he mislaid them? What was he to do?

    Bee wanted to help, and thinking he had the answer began:
    "You probably ate them thinking they were a carrot."
    "No!" interrupted Owl, who was wise.
    "I have good eye-sight, insight, and foresight.
    How could an intelligent hare make such a silly mistake?"
    But all this time, Owl had been sitting on the fence, scowling!

    A Kangaroo were hopping mad at this sort of talk.
    She thought herself far superior in intelligence to the others.
    She was their leader, their guru. She had the answer:
    "Hare, you must go in search of the optician."
    But then she realized that Hare was completely helpless without his spectacles.
    And so, Kangaroo loudly proclaimed, "I can't send Hare in search of anything!"
    "You can guru, you can!" shouted Newt.
    "You can send him with Owl."
    But Owl had gone to sleep.
    Newt knew too much to be stopped by so small a problem
    "You can take him in your pouch."
    But alas, Hare was much too big to fit into Kangaroo's pouch.

    All this time, it had been quite plain to hare that the others knew nothing about spectacles.

    As for all their tempting ideas, well Hare didn't care.
    The lost spectacles were his own affair.
    And after all, Hare did have a spare a-pair.
    A-pair.

    THE END

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VElJqN5XDdQ

    We sleep by the ever-bright hole in the door,
    eat in the corner, talk to the floor,
    cheating the spiders who come to say "Please",
    (politely). They bend at the knees.
    Well, I'll go to the foot of our stairs.
    Old gentlemen talk of when they were young
    of ladies lost, of erring sons.
    Lace-covered dandies revel (with friends)
    pure as the truth, tied at both ends.
    Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs.
    Scented cathedral spire pointed down.
    We pray for souls in Kentish Town.
    A delicate hush the gods, floating by
    wishing us well, pie in the sky.
    God of ages, Lord of Time, mine is the right, right to be wrong.
    Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs.
    Jack rabbit mister spawn a new breed
    of love-hungry pilgrims (no bodies to feed).
    Show me a good man and I'll show you the door.
    The last hymn is sung and the devil cries "More."

    Well, I'm all for leaving and that being done,
    I've put in a request to take up my turn
    in that forsaken paradise that calls itself "Hell"
    where no-one has nothing and nothing is- well -meaning fool,
    pick up thy bed and rise up from your gloom smiling.
    Give me your hate and do as the loving heathen do.

    Colours I've none dark or light, red, white or blue.
    Cold is my touch (freezing).

    Summoned by name - I am the overseer over you.
    Given this command to watch o'er our miserable sphere.
    Fallen from grace, called on to bring sun or rain.
    Occasional corn from my oversight grew.
    Fell with mine angels from a far better place,
    offering services for the saving of face.
    Now you're here, you may as well admire
    all whom living has retired from the benign reconciliation.
    Legends were born surrounding mysterious lights
    seen in the sky (flashing).
    I just lit a fag then took my leave in the blink of an eye.
    Passionate play join round the maypole in dance
    (primitive rite) (wrongly).
    Summoned by name I am the overseer over you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQdwRs78SsE

    Flee the icy Lucifer. Oh he's an awful fellow!
    What a mistake! I didn't take a feather from his pillow.
    Here's the everlasting rub: neither am I good or bad.
    I'd give up my halo for a horn and the horn for the hat I once had.
    I'm only breathing. There's life on my ceiling.
    The flies there are sleeping quietly.
    Twist my right arm in the dark.
    I would give two or three for
    one of those days that never made
    impressions on the old score.
    I would gladly be a dog barking up the wrong tree.
    Everyone's saved we're in the grave.
    See you there for afternoon tea.
    Time for awaking the tea lady's making
    a brew-up and baking new bread.
    Pick me up at half past none
    there's not a moment to lose.
    There is the train on which I came.
    On the platform are my old shoes.
    Station master rings his bell.
    Whistles blow and flags wave.
    A little of what you fancy does you good (Or so it should).
    I thank everybody
    for making me welcome.
    I'd stay but my wings have just dropped off.

    Hail! Son of kings make the ever-dying sign
    cross your fingers in the sky for those about to BE.
    There am I waiting along the sand.

    Cast your sweet spell upon the land and sea.

    Magus Perde, take your hand from off the chain.
    Loose a wish to still, the rain, the storm about to BE.
    Here am I (voyager into life).
    Tough are the soles that tread the knife's edge.
    Break the circle,stretch the line, call upon the devil.
    Bring the gods, the gods' own fire.
    In the conflict revel.
    The passengers upon the ferry crossing, waiting to be born,
    renew the pledge of life's long song rise to the reveille horn.
    Animals queueing at the gate that stands upon the shore
    breathe the ever-burning fire that guards the ever-door.

    Man - son of man - buy the flame of ever-life
    (yours to breathe and breath the pain of living): living BE!
    Here am I! Roll the stone away
    from the dark into ever-day.

    There was a rush along the Fulham Road
    into the Ever-passion Play.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzMuf_TNBKw

  • unshackled
    unshackled

    Jethro Tull...didn't see that entering the discussion. Nice!

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Everyone knows the Isaiah account.

    The title question, OP, and various responses seem to indicate that that isn't actually the case, dear designs (peace to you!)

    The issues are many and diverse.

    Not really. The question was "who's sins did [Jesus] die for"? Isaiah's account answers the question. One question, one issue, one answer: Israel's... and those who put faith in the king God appointed over Israel.

    Science and its challenges to the Bible accounts. Literal and figurative interpretations to the accounts in the Bible. The Authors and the immediate cultural perspectives to the accounts. Historical and Archeological confirmation of the accounts. Internal errors and ommissions in the Biblical accounts.

    Ah, those issues. But none of these address the question... nor is consideration of them necessary to do so.

    And when a Jew reads the NT and sees the numerous errors and omissions the problems magnify.

    Not just for Jews. For some others of us, too. Well, not entirely. I mean, they COULD raise problems... if one didn't know what to do about them, which statements are true and which aren't. But it's easy enough to know: ask the One about whom they speak. Simple enough... and no "issues" to deal with.

    Think of this doozy " I give you a new commandment to love one another', sounds sweet and noble, one small problemo 'Jesus' was quoting from the Jewish Sages who had been teaching this for centuries! Oooopsie got caught. The NT almost gets hysterical with these types of repeated blunders.

    Ummmm... actually, dear one, he wasn't quoting Jewish Sages: they had been quoting... and parrotting him. For centuries. They got their "wisdom" from the prophets... who got it from the Word [of JaHVeH]. Which is the Christ. Which is why he said, "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."

    Most of us coming from the Watchtower background recognize this type of bravado which weaves half truths in with fiction and imagination to confuse the uneducated.

    That we came from the Watchtower background indicates, to ME, at least... that we have some things in common. One, that none of us is really any smarter or more knowledgeable than the other and, primarily, because of this we were all fooled... by men. For a time. Some of us continue to choose that course, to continue putting our faith in men. Some of us recognize our limitations and so put our faith in One who is something more than man... but having been a man understands what we're all about. Including that we can be misled... by men.

    Jewish 'Messiahs', humans claiming to be the Messiah have been appearing for centuries in Judaism. There were several competitors to Jesus.

    Yes.

    Jesus is more like the Essene model of a Pacifist while the others were militants.

    Some like that theory...

    In Christianity the followers look to the Second Coming to bring fulfillment to the millions of Jews who believe in a literal Messiah a prayer is said each day: 'I believe (Ani Ma'amin) with complete faith that the Messiah will come, and although he may tarry, yet each day I will wait for his coming'.

    Not sure if you're referring the "christianity" or the million of Jews who "believe"... but I don't believe he is tarrying. Although, I'm not a part a christianity (but I am a Jew, by blood)...

    To the millions of Conservative and Reformed Jews the Messiah is a symbol of justice and peace which they take as their personal mission in this world.

    And what of the millions of other Jews? Say the Alternative Jews? The Humanistic Jews? The Karaite Jew? The Liberal Jews? The Reconstructionist Jews? How about the Renewal Jews? The Traditional Jews? The Orthodox (i.e., the Modern Orthodox and/or Ultra Orthodox... and among the latter, the Haredim... including the Hassidic, Yeshiva, and Separdic Jews... which is actually the fastest growing Jewish sect)? What about the Progressive Jews? My point is that Judaism has its own set of "issues"... and differences in belief, doctrine, and practice.

    I don't ascribe to christianity, per se, dear designs... or to the inspiration... or infallibility... of the Bible. I do believe that God speaks to man... today... just He has always spoke to man: previously through prophets (which even religious Jews believe)... and now, through His Son (which most religious, non-messianic Jews dispute).

    Regardless of whether you and I agree as to Judaism/Christianity... both the Tanakh (Nevi'im) AND the Bible state whose sins the "messiah" would die for. You and I just happen to disagree on who that "messiah" is.

    As always, I bid you peace!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

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