If Genesis isn't taken literally, who's sin did Jesus die for? (page 9)

cantleave

Mad Sweeney - You have become on of my favourite posters overnight! The Jethro Tull touch is awesome.

ProdigalSon

tec, thanks for posting the rest of the scripture, but it still doesn't mean that Jesus was talking about Jehovah. Here's further evidence that he WASN'T....

Luke 9: 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Hmmm.... Elias's God has a different manner of spirit than Jesus' said his disciples should have.... I wonder if he could have meant this.....

Judges 9: 23 Then God sent an evil spirit between A·bim´e·lech and the landowners of She´chem, and the landowners of She´chem proceeded to deal treacherously with A·bim´e·lech....

1 Samuel 16: 14 And the very spirit of Jehovah departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from Jehovah terrorized him.

LOL... the NWT translates this word "evil" as "bad", when it is pure EVIL!!!! LOL!! What are they trying to hide?

PSacramento

Luke 9: 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Not all the ancient manuscripts have that last part.

But He turned and rebuked them, [ 1 and said, “You do not knowwhatkind of spirit you are of; 56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroymen’slives, but to save them.”]

] manuscripts add and he said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man came not to destroy people’s lives but to save them”

Jesus's rebuke was that they were putting themselves in His place ( casting Judgment) and that their spirit was not like his, pure.

poopsiecakes

Hi Shelby

I agree with most of what you said, and one thing I love about you, PSac and Tec is that you all focus on the positive aspects of being a Christian. I believe in fundamentally the same things, I just don't see why we need to use a deity in any form to accomplish these positive personality adjustments. When I was coming out of the WT, I never once blamed god and it wasn't because of my negative experiences that I chose to re-examine his existence. What my negative experiences did for me was make me promise myself that I would never treat another person the way I had been treated. Simple as that.

I also learned a fundamental truth that is in the bible - love others as you love yourself. We all know this principle but the fundamental truth I learned is that it's only possible to truly love others when you love and respect yourself first. The way I apply that in my life is to (as much as possible) treat others with kindness, compassion and mentally walk in their shoes - all the while being kind to myself as well. Too many people and too many religions leave out the 'as you love yourself' part of the equation so you end up with a bunch of people who feel unworthy, blame themselves, hate themselves and put that on the world around them. The end result is negativity, fear, prejudice in all its forms and a tendancy to see the worst in people instead of focusing on the best aspects of human nature. Yes, people can be cruel and yes people hurt and torment one another in horrible ways. That's on them and perpetuating that because you've been hurt is only recycling the negativity - there is good out there and I believe there is good in just about everyone. Looking for that good IS a choice and it's a choice we have to make every day. And some days are easier than others. Not having a belief in god or any other deity doesn't fundamentally help or hinder this process in my opinion...

tec

Luke 9: 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of...

... , for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

They didn't seem to understand that, and so that is why they were rebuked.

But I agree that those writers probably didn't know the spirit they were supposed to be of, either (in your judges and Samuel examples)... because God does not send evil spirits upon people. We know this, because Christ did not send evil upon people, but tried to bring them to repentance - and also healed people.

But some understood Him, (God), Prodigal Son. Hosea 6:6 - For I desire mercy, not sacrifice. (this was speaking of YHWH - or translated Jehovah by some)

Or also Isaiah 58:6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the ords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter - when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?"

(also speaking of YHWH, or translated Jehovah by some)

But then, as now, many did not understand Him - and so gave Him a bad name. Some did understand though, and we can too... the easiest way is by looking through Christ.

Tammy

ProdigalSon

Geez, I forgot to include that last part too.... thanks! So, wasn't Jesus saying that Jehovah was into destroying men's lives instead of saving them? The KEY is, the disciples said "as Elias did", and we know who HIS god was.......

Also, I forgot to point out before that the NWT tranlates "sent an evil spirit" as "let develop a bad spirit".... LOL!! That's like saying, "God loved the world so much that he LET DEVELOP his only-begotten son...."

tec

Geez, I forgot to include that last part too.... thanks! So, wasn't Jesus saying that Jehovah was into destroying men's lives instead of saving them?

Why would you think that? Why not - people have misunderstood my father since the beginning, but here I am showing you Him. Listen to ME.

Tammy

Heaven

The resultant aging, sickness, and thus death that we carry in our flesh, however, as a result of the long garment of skin given Adam/Eve (NOT because of their sin but to cover their NAKEDNESS which was now manifest to them because their eyes WERE opened)... IS genetic. And I would wager that even science agrees with that.

Biblically speaking, this only goes to cover off those who come from the Adamic line. What of those who came from the other peoples created before Yahweh created Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:26-28)? They do not have this issue of being ashamed of their nakedness, and yet, they too, die.

Death has always been a part of life on Earth.

Genesis 3:22: Then Yahweh God said, "See, the man has become like one of us, with his knowledge of good and evil. He must not be allowed to stretch his hand out next and pick from the tree of life also, and eat some and live forever."

This verse shows that there were/is more than one God and that God prevented Adam and Eve from attaining immortality by evicting them from the Garden of Eden to prevent them eating from the tree of life. Specifically eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad did not kill Adam and Eve. Preventing them from eating of the tree of life did.

So in essence, God lied to Adam and Eve and the serpent told them the truth.

OR... you can go with what we do know. That death is a part of life. We all die. Even the animals, insects, birds, plants, microbes, etc. etc., have a finite lifespan and suffer from illness and aging. It is all part of the natural cycle of life on Earth. All of what we know is learned. If you are never taught to be ashamed of your naked body, you will not be. I have seen this first hand. It is a mind-set.

designs

Tammy-

This idea that God wants to save everyone from their sins only through Jesus is the issue in contrasting Judaism and Christianity. A resurrection for all of humanity was regularly taught in Synagogues at the time of Jesus, Martha tells us as much in relating the future of her brother. So again the point is- how can you save people that are already saved.

Here is an example of Pauline theology, and ask yourself what is at odds with Judaism in this passage. 1Cor.15 'if Christ did not rise, then our preaching is in vain and our faith is in vain. ....And if Christ did not rise you are yet in your sins...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive'. Those are excerpts from verses 14,17,22, but you know the context. This is one of those classic Pauline discussions that make me realize that he wasn't who he is said to be.

Mad Sweeney

Jethro Tull...didn't see that entering the discussion. Nice!

Mad Sweeney - You have become on of my favourite posters overnight! The Jethro Tull touch is awesome.

Thanks. And it has a point, too. "A Passion Play" is no less an authority on the afterlife than any other document of man's invention, and it's a lot more fun to listen to than a symposium at the special assembly day, too!

One could spend hours studying the lyrics of that one less-than-45-minute album alone and still have no clear conclusion about whether Ronnie Pilgrim should be applauded or reproached.

If Genesis isn't taken literally, who's sin did Jesus die for?

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