The Catholic Perspective (page 5)

sabastious

So perhaps you could tell me what you think this account is about then? Because I still don't see what the difference between it being allegory or literal has to do with the meaning.

I will concede that it's place in the Bible is apparent. It's the Bible's backstory, the backbone of the whole narrative really, but it was not originally wrote to be the beginning of the Bible I don't think, I believe it was originally standalone.

You ask me how being literal or figurative changes the meaning? One is literal the other is figurative. Were talking about polar opposites here and you are asking me how switching black to white changes the meaning? Really?

As a figurative story so many "Christian truths" fade away:

1. God's Grace would change drastically since Man would not be unworthy of God's help. Of course we are worthy of his help and direction, he created us!

2. Sin would become a symbol rather than something mystical. Sin would be a represenative of what WE have cataloged as detrimental to society.

3. The Ransom Sacrifice would become something different as well, since Jesus allegedly died for the sins of Adam and Eve

So, many things change drastically if the Adam and Eve story was a figurative parable.

I don't mean to talk down to you, or anyone for that matter, Tammy. My intention is not to tear down, but to get my thoughts across. As you can see I think a LOT about this kind of stuff and the points I have come up with are hard logic.

Of course, the three items above could be explained with loose logic to fit in with the "grand scheme" but I just will not believe in a "grand scheme" that is known to us.

As far as I can tell from my vantage point, the only grand scheme we have is the ones we set into motion, of which some are catastrophic and some are beautiful.

Same old story, new characters.

-Sab

PSacramento

Genesis being figurative doesn't change that much because Genesis is a story of how things came to be.

It doesn't change that things ARE.

Mans sin is his turning away from God, a sin that is carried down through the ages by us doing that very thing, as we still see to this day.

Whether Adam was an actual real person or the fgurative name for "MAN"(kind) doesn't change that man did this act ( turn from God) and that this act was passed along the generations.

sabastious

Whether Adam was an actual real person or the fgurative name for "MAN"(kind) doesn't change that man did this act ( turn from God) and that this act was passed along the generations.

Au contraire!

If I am going to "give my life up" to Jesus and "allow him to forgive" my sins I need to know my infraction.

According to most Christians I have come across this is easily explained through the... ADAM AND EVE STORY!

I am worthless without forgiveness... because of Adam.

If Adam becomes a "figure" to represent the fall of man then it is simply not enough to me to feel guilt of my, or his, actions. I need an account that details why I need forgiveness in the first place.

As far as I can tell we all make mistakes. Some people justify atrocities and they need to be dealt with, not because they are sinners, but because they are a threat to my livelihood.

That's the Christian stance: we all make mistakes (the observation that we all can make), therefore we need to be forgiven because it's impossible not to do bad things on occasion.

This guilt trip directly correlates with the parable of Adam and Eve because so many people took it literally in the past.

-Sab

PSacramento

Au contraire!

Normally french incite me to violence and the throwing of cabbages, beware!

If I am going to "give my life up" to Jesus and "allow him to forgive" my sins I need to know my infraction.

Sure.

According to most Christians I have come across this is easily explained through the... ADAM AND EVE STORY!

Got start somewhere.

I am worthless without forgiveness... because of Adam.

Nope, you are not worthless, you are however "broken" but fixable.

If Adam becomes a "figure" to represent the fall of man then it is simply not enough to me to feel guilt of my, or his, actions. I need an account that details why I need forgiveness in the first place.

As far as I can tell we all make mistakes. Some people justify atrocities and they need to be dealt with, not because they are sinners, but because they are a threat to my livelihood.

That's the Christian stance: we all make mistakes (the observation that we all can make), therefore we need to be forgiven because it's impossible not to do bad things on occasion.

This guilt trip directly correlates with the parable of Adam and Eve because so many people took it literally in the past.

When the first people rebelled against God, that rebellion, like a virus, spread down through their ancestors.

Whether their names were Adam and Eve proper or those names were symbolic for the first people to rebel or whether they were symbolic of the tribe of Israel, none of that chnages that the rebellion happend and that Luke Skywalker is our last hope !!!

Oh wait, wrong story !!

;)

sabastious

Nope, you are not worthless, you are however "broken" but fixable.

I want to start my reply with your quote above because it's what I think is fundamentally wrong with Christianity (yeah I said it, wrong). :)

I used the word worthless and you disagreed with that use and "refined" my train of thought using the word "fixable."

Something that is broken is worthless until fixed. Som until the broken item is fixed it will remain worthless until repaired. Of course it doesn depend on how broken this item is. If it is only mildly broken then it can still be used, just not at it's full potential. There is a balance there between usable and unusable.

Regardless, your "broken" analogy meet the same brick wall. Where is the evidence that I am broken? I am just like everyone else... imperfect.

What in this world isn't imperfect? Everything degrades and changes or disappears entirely. We work the same way, so why are we the ones that are broken? We very well could just be in a growing state as a species which comes with some severe pains.

The Christian explanation of our existence as imperfect or broken entities makes no sense at all.

-Sab

sabastious

When the first people rebelled against God, that rebellion, like a virus, spread down through their ancestors.

A simple way to explain things, but you have no evidence for such an explanation.

-Sab

sabastious

Whether their names were Adam and Eve proper or those names were symbolic for the first people to rebel or whether they were symbolic of the tribe of Israel, none of that chnages that the rebellion happend and that Luke Skywalker is our last hope !!!

What if they aren't real people at all? What is Adam and Eve represent something NOT human? I can provide real evidence for such an explanation.

-Sab

PSacramento

Something that is broken is worthless until fixed

One can argue that something worth fixing is NOT worthless to begin with.

A simple way to explain things, but you have no evidence for such an explanation.

Of course not, we are just having a theological discussion, evidence is a non-issue right now.

What if they aren't real people at all? What is Adam and Eve represent something NOT human? I can provide real evidence for such an explanation.

Cool, this should be interesting.

sabastious

One can argue that something worth fixing is NOT worthless to begin with.

Hah! Another great example of Christian guilt. We all have potential worth.

Carrot meet stick.

-Sab

sabastious

Of course not, we are just having a theological discussion, evidence is a non-issue right now.

Yes, you are correct, but lets try to give tidbits of evidence if we have them on hand in our minds.

-Sab

The Catholic Perspective

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