by sabastious 139 Replies latest watchtower bible
Sin is wrongdoing, as determined by what hurts us and others, imo.
Problem is who does the defining of what hurts us? No matter what decisions are leaders make it never appeases all and almost always hurts some because of sheer numbers. God doesn't seem to want to define it yet because the Bible leaves much to be desired as far as ethics go.
-Sab
Allegedly is the key word. I don't believe this, and I don't believe the bible supports this view.
Ok you and I agree that Jesus didn't die for the sins of Adam, but do you believe that Jesus died because of the sins of Adam?
-Sab
I still haven't heard one that would be different from a literal view to an allegorical view:)
Tammy, if you are going to make such statements please tell me how it isn't different from a pure allegorical standpoint :)
The story is about the first sin. If the "first sin" is allegorical then it changes a great deal for you and I. In the stream of all Christianity, many have made claim to doctrine hinged on Adam and Eve being literal (including JWs of course). This is not a whacky idea, it is quite accepted most Christian communities, no?
-Sab
See this is where people lose me in the discussion. Have you never hurt anyone, then? Been selfish? Ignored the homeless? Turned a blind eye to the starving people in the world because 'what can you do about it?' Lied, which caused someone hurt - even if it was somewhere down the line, and someone you didn't even know or care much about? Etc, etc, etc...
Tammy, I am extremely remorseful for those things. Every time I do something unhelpful to society by neglecting something or hurting someone I regognize it and make a serious attempt to remedy it.
And here come the Christian's telling me that it isn't enough. Not only do I need to repent and change course I also need to accept Jesus because without that action my actions to remedy are in vain. What a shitty concept.
I like myself, I think I am the best person I can be and I embrace growth and correction. Your telling me that's not enough? You are telling me that I am missing something? I don't buy it. If Jesus or God exists I think they tip their hats to me, because I try very hard to be the best person I can be.
Just because I don't have some mystical connection with Jesus because I "accepted him" is bunk. I did accept him by immitating his actions in the gospel.
Do I want to help the misfortuned? Yes I do, but I am pretty financially destitute as well. I havn't been in a position to help a homeless person in years, hell I should probably be homeless but I get help from my inlaws who believe in me, why? Because they see my actions, my drive, my will to be the best I can be as a person.
To hell with "deeds." Those arn't what quantify a person's integrity. Your will or drive to do good things is what quantifies integrity of which cannot be measured by anyone but yourself and your creator.
Again Tammy, I do not wish to single you out or attack you. I have deep respect for you and your beliefs but as you can see, I have some strong ones of my own :)
-Sab
I know that I have. So I know that I need forgiveness - with or without Adam and Eve's 'guilt'.
I highly recommend forgiving yourself, it's a wonderful feeling.
-Sab
Nothing is simple when your parents are Jw's my friend.
Hah, great point, that is a complicated scanario.
That very scanario is why I feel so apt to speak out about the Witnesses. If their doctrine wasn't setup to ensnare youth into the cult I would have left and remained quiet. I don't care what adults do with their lives so long as it isn't deceptive and destructive.
-Sab
Indeed, but a bieng that loves in a way that we can't even begin to fathom, hurts in a way that we can't begin to fathom.
If we can't fathom his hurt then why be concerned with it? Lets just do our best and God will deal with his end of it.
-San
BTS: To you, then, friendship can only be among equals. I don't think that is necessarily the case. In Christianity, God is the only noncontingent, infinite/eternal being.
We are like God, but we are not infinite, like God is
We can never be equal, because we are limited, contingent beings.
This is why friendship with God is often described in parent/child terms.
I see your point and it has exposed some holes in my statement. I'll need to rephrase:
Friendship, to me, means equal opportunity. A friendship will always be among two inequal people, since no two people are alike. But that doesn't mean the relationship can't be equal opportunity.
Is God greater than I? Of course! But that doesn't mean my relationship can't be an equal opportunity relationship, just as if I had a friend much wiser than I he/she would not lord it over my head and demand that I respect their superior position.
If he/she did then it would not be a friendship but an apprenticeship. I dont believe in apprenticeship with God since his role in my life is limited (from my perspective). I attribute most the things I do in my life to my own hand. God created the Racecar and I am driving, does he deserve credit for creating a wonderful machine? Yes! But I am driving and I am winning the race using his tools.
So when the race is won, both the driver and designer of the car will get equal credit.
-Sab
BTS: God never withholds his friendship, which is love. We can choose to accept that love and dwell in it, or we can choose to reject it and dwell outside of it. It is not that God ever withholds friendship, it is that we choose acceptance or rejection. Either way, we get what we want. God will not violate our wills in these matters. A love not freely chosen is not love at all.
I strongly disagree. God has requirements (according to Christian theology) and if they are not met the rewards are withheld.
God's love is not a law of the universe. According to the Bible, God is a person with hopes dreams anger and wrath. He's not this mystical figure, he's a main character in the Bible.
The fact that he is a person with a personality tells me that he is similar to us, just much more advanced. Therefore his friendship is something similar to our version of it. I am not everyone's friend or even everyone's potential friend, and the same with God. There are show stoppers for me and I believe so with God too.
I feel you are putting God into a position not really fathomable, it's too mystical (unless some of your explanation is missing).
-Sab
BTS: We must recognize our limited natures in order to dwell in God. We are not the transcendent God. In our lives, over which we have freedom to choose, we can make our choices without consideration for what is good. Our choices are made with love to the good and true, or towards the opposite polarity, which is the absence of it.
You keep talking about this "freedom to choose." That's where our opinion's greatly differ. When I read the Bible I see commandments even in regards to love. The greatest commandment is to love God... That is not a choice.
I really don't wish to debate that issue because it tires me. If someone came into your house and put a gun at your child and said "get out of the house" you'd have a choice: let your child die with little cause or leave the house.
Is it a choice? Yes by definition, but for someone to take the argument that it is free will will piss me off. :)
-Sab
