The Catholic Perspective (page 6)

sabastious

Cool, this should be interesting.

Aint gonna be for a bit, it's a serious project atm. I don't want to "publish" anything until it's ready

-Sab

Sab - I have to go build (okay, okay... I WANT to go build ) an Atlantis Lego Creation with my youngest. Its one of those HUGE ones. I'll be back when we're done (or when we can't see straight anymore) to respond to your response :)

Tammy

PSacramento

Hah! Another great example of Christian guilt. We all have potential worth.

Guilt?

Dude, do I sound like I have guilt in me about God?

Yes, you are correct, but lets try to give tidbits of evidence if we have them on hand in our minds.

There are a few essays on the Adma and Eve thing, an interesting one is the one over at Biologos.

sabastious

Dude, do I sound like I have guilt in me about God?

You may have found a way around the guilt as an individual, but the guilt still remains from the NT's syngery with the Genesis account.

You have been sold Jesus for one reason or another. Jesus is all wooshy gooshy about love and forgiveness and mercy. So I think it's hard for you, as a person, to wrap your head around the concept of Christian Guilt. If I had to guess, you don't go to church very often and if you do you mentally "skip over" the the guilt trips.

Which is a great technique if I am correct. It means you get to have your cake and eat it too in a healthy non destructive way.

I applaud you, and Tammy too for sticking to your personal spirituality and not buying into Christian Guilt.

But that's not to say that Christianity is not full of targeted guilt trips, no?

-Sab

PSacramento

You have been sold Jesus for one reason or another. Jesus is all wooshy gooshy about love and forgiveness and mercy. So I think it's hard for you, as a person, to wrap your head around the concept of Christian Guilt. If I had to guess, you don't go to church very often and if you do you mentally "skip over" the the guilt trips.

I don't go to church often, no, that's because I get into discussion with the priest far too much, LOL !
I wish I had been sold Jesus, I think that perhaps things may be easier if it was that simple a transaction.

The only guilt I feel towards God and Jesus, if you wanna call it that, is the anger and even hate I had for them before.

It pains me the way I thought about them, how I yelled at them and how I hurt them and while they have forgiven me, I am not sure how long it will take for me to forgive myself.

So I guess you are right about the guilt thing.

sabastious

I wish I had been sold Jesus, I think that perhaps things may be easier if it was that simple a transaction.

What a profound statement.

When it's all said and done is it not merely a simple transaction? Accepting Jesus as your personal savior... easier said than done is what I say, but when you do (as I have seen in others) it is an easy step to make, it's the steps beforehand that allow you to be able to make said decision that are complex, no?

-Sab

sabastious

It pains me the way I thought about them, how I yelled at them and how I hurt them and while they have forgiven me, I am not sure how long it will take for me to forgive myself.

Do you think they were hurt by your actions against them? I would venture to guess no. They understand you more than we can even fathom, since they are our creators.

You yelling at God would be the equivlent of an infant screaming after a toy is taken from him. Should the infant grow up feeling guilty about being immature? Should the infant have known better? Was it not the only means of communication the infant had at the time?

Food for thought.

-Sab

tec

You ask me how being literal or figurative changes the meaning? One is literalthe other is figurative. Were talking about polar opposites here and you are asking me how switching black to white changes the meaning? Really?

Yes, really :) I don't see how the meaning is changed. Writers of myths and such still use their stories to portray real truths, don't they?

As a figurative story so many "Christian truths" fade away:

I think this discussion might have to wait for your project to be finished and shared, but for now, we'll go with what we've got:

1. God's Grace would change drastically since Man would not be unworthy of God's help. Of course we are worthy of his help and direction, he created us!

How does the Adam/Eve story, taken on its own, say that we are unworthy of help? Didn't God try and help Cain when Cain was about to get himself into some trouble?

2. Sin would become a symbol rather than something mystical. Sin would be a represenative of what WE have cataloged as detrimental to society.

Sin is wrongdoing, as determined by what hurts us and others, imo. The act of disobedience in the account of Adam and Eve (and the deception of Satan) hurt them, and their subsequent children. (in fact, what you're saying sounds like Adam and Eve as it is... WE'LL decide what wrongdoing is for ourselves, and we'll decide what hurts society... we don't need God to instruct us)

3. The Ransom Sacrifice would become something different as well, since Jesus allegedly died for the sins of Adam and Eve

Allegedly is the key word. I don't believe this, and I don't believe the bible supports this view.

So, many things change drastically if the Adam and Eve story was a figurative parable.

I still haven't heard one that would be different from a literal view to an allegorical view:)

I don't mean to talk down to you, or anyone for that matter, Tammy. My intention is not to tear down, but to get my thoughts across. As you can see I think a LOT about this kind of stuff and the points I have come up with are hard logic.

I don't think you're talking down to me. I hope you don't think that of me, also.

If Adam becomes a "figure" to represent the fall of man then it is simply not enough to me to feel guilt of my, or his, actions. I need an account that details why I need forgiveness in the first place.

See this is where people lose me in the discussion. Have you never hurt anyone, then? Been selfish? Ignored the homeless? Turned a blind eye to the starving people in the world because 'what can you do about it?' Lied, which caused someone hurt - even if it was somewhere down the line, and someone you didn't even know or care much about? Etc, etc, etc...

Have you never done anything to abuse the gift of life given you... or hurt another part or person in God's creation?

I know that I have. So I know that I need forgiveness - with or without Adam and Eve's 'guilt'.

Tammy

PSacramento

When it's all said and done is it not merely a simple transaction? Accepting Jesus as your personal savior... easier said than done is what I say, but when you do (as I have seen in others) it is an easy step to make, it's the steps beforehand that allow you to be able to make said decision that are complex, no?

Nothing is simple when your parents are Jw's my friend.

PSacramento

Do you think they were hurt by your actions against them? I would venture to guess no. They understand you more than we can even fathom, since they are our creators.

Indeed, but a bieng that loves in a way that we can't even begin to fathom, hurts in a way that we can't begin to fathom.

You yelling at God would be the equivlent of an infant screaming after a toy is taken from him. Should the infant grow up feeling guilty about being immature? Should the infant have known better? Was it not the only means of communication the infant had at the time?

An interesting analogy and perhaps quite correct.

Food for thought.

You always do give me just that my friend :)

The Catholic Perspective

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