I need a show of hands: who believes the Bible and to what extent?

by Terry 206 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  A.Fenderson

  I have often felt a connection with something other than myself that I can only describe as God.

  Your wording couldn't be more accurate or to the point: you can only describe it as God. Buddhists may feel something very similar if not nearly identical to you, and yet they possibly can only describe it as their inner Buddah nature, or a glimpse of Nirvana, or whatever terms they choose to apply to it, based on their understanding of their faith's concepts together with a limited experience or learning with the terminology and concepts of other religions, human psychology/physiology, etc. Feelings of this nature are 100% subjective, non-universal in the human experience, and demonstrably subject to interpretation through a necessarily limited reference frame. All of this is a given, though, so the question becomes--if it is God, why does he choose to ignore the vast majority of us?
• 

  Robdar

  A. Fenderson:

  Your wording couldn't be more accurate or to the point: you can only describe it as God. Buddhists may feel something very similar if not nearly identical to you, and yet they possibly can only describe it as their inner Buddah nature, or a glimpse of Nirvana, or whatever terms they choose to apply to it, based on their understanding of their faith's concepts together with a limited experience or learning with the terminology and concepts of other religions, human psychology/physiology, etc. Feelings of this nature are 100% subjective, non-universal in the human experience, and demonstrably subject to interpretation through a necessarily limited reference frame.

  If other people are having these experiences then it indicates that they could be universal. Just because the interpretation of it differs and is subjective to each individual does not make the experience subjective because it is a reference to our understanding of the experience and not the experience itself. We each experience the warmth of the sun subjectively but that does not alter the universality of sunshine.

  I only know what I know from my own experience, and the initial experience shook me to the core and changed me considerably. I am no longer an atheist.

  All of this is a given, though, so the question becomes--if it is God, why does he choose to ignore the vast majority of us?

  Since I cannot agree that your initial statement above is a given, my questions become, why do the vast majority of us choose to ignore, for a lack of a better term, God? You have acquaintances and friends. Who are you more likely to help out when they call you late at night? Would God respond any differently? Of course, even with your friends, sometimes your answer is still no.

  I think of God as a creative force and not a sky daddy who is supposed to do my bidding. I am an adult and can take matters into my own hands. Even when I feel the guidance and creative flow of "God", I still do the work myself and do not expect him to do it for me. I am not looking for magical help, merely guidance as to the best course of action. However, if I ever start levitating or walking on water, I will be sure to take a couple of photographs and you betcha this forum will be the first place I post them. LOL

  Robyn
• 

  A.Fenderson

  If other people are having these experiences then it indicates that they could be universal.

  I haven't had one. Admittedly, I'm not dead yet, so anything is possible. But if they were universal, and as powerful as you go on to describe, do you think that this many people would have the power within themselves to utterly ignore or deny them, and go on about their lives as though they never happened? Or do the vast majority of these experiences happen only to people on their death-beds, when it's all but too late for it to have any real impact on the rest of the world via their changed lives and actions?

  Just because the interpretation of it differs and is subjective to each individual does not make the experience subjective because it is a reference to our understanding of the experience and not the experience itself.

  Not sure I parsed that entire sentence, but all experience is categorically subjective. There may well be an objective reality, but any experience thereof is inherently subjective--this is one thing we cannot escape and must realize and keep in mind at all times.

  my question becomes, why do the vast majority of us choose to ignore, for a lack of a better term, God? You have acquaintances and friends. Who are you more likely to help out when they call you late at night? Would God respond any differently?

  1. For the same reason I choose to ignore Huitzilopochtli.

  2. I would think that a God of pure love would be above petty in-group biases, unlike his mortal children here on Earth. Otherwise, he's not so very divine, IMO.
• 

  Robdar

  Not sure I parsed that entire sentence, but all experience is categorically subjective. There may well be an objective reality, but any experience thereof is inherently subjective--this is one thing we cannot escape and must realize and keep in mind at all times.

  LOL. When I re-read my post, I realized it was more convoluted than I intended. Not to excuse my lack of cohesive thought, but I am a newly wed and rather shagged out at this time. I hope to make more sense later--much later. BTW, I totally agree with what you say--experience is subjective. All facts are theory ladden. The only way we can understand facts is through some sort of theory, rather it is explicit or implicit.

  I would think that a God of pure love would be above petty in-group biases, unlike his mortal children here on Earth. Otherwise, he's not so very divine, IMO.

  Why does the fact that he refuses to impose himself where he is not wanted make him/it/her petty? Couldnt this also be a result of respect instead of pettiness? Even if it is seen as pettiness, this now puts us into the realm of interpreting God's nature rather than whether God exists or not. Besides, perhaps God's enigmatic nature is for his amusment and not ours.

  After my "mystical" and life changing experience from atheist to believer, there were many things I still couldn't reconcile with what I had been taught about God. I eventually decided that most of the things I had been taught were wrong and had to start over from scratch. I have had many experiences that just dont jive with Judeo-Christian beliefs but there was still this feeling of guidance that I couldn't deny and it worked out wonderfully.

  I have been recently musing over the thought that just because we have been taught that God is pure love doesnt' mean that it's true, does it?
• 

  A.Fenderson

  I am a newly wed and rather shagged out at this time.

  Congrats! Don't have too much fun. I'll give a reply to your post tomorrow, have a good night.
• 

  Robdar

  A. Fenderson: Thank you for your well wishes. I look forward to reading your thoughts on the matter.
• 

  Qcmbr

  Robber - I too have had 'spiritual' experiences that ,at the time, lacking a natural explanation, I ascribed to God. Some were sublime, breathtaking and beautiful. The reason I was such an enthusiastic missionary was based largely upon those rewarding, emotional, deeply attitude and mind altering experiences.

  Fortunately I discovered that they don't come from God, angels, demons or in my case ( being teetotal and a non drinker) from external chemical substances. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that those same feelings occur after one has left any concept of god and that internal chemical interactions and certain states of mind combine to allow me to still experience religious bliss without the religion bit!

  I understand how powerful experiences of the spiritual kind can be but I beg you to consider that they do not come from some external supernatural source.
• 

  Hoffnung

  I am raising my hand. I am a believer in the bible. I also would like to second what Syl has written.

  That said, I have not yet clearly defined the extent to what I believe it yet. At the moment I feel that the accounts about the creation and the snake story are fiction. Moses was not an eyewitness, and I think he merely repeated the popular Jewish creation story of that moment. Same for a worldwide flood, although a local flood in the Turkey Iraq area seemed to have happened, but on an earlier moment then what the bible said. So far I think we can believe whatever the writer wrote about his own time, things from which he was an eye witness or had access to witnesses of the event. So far no archeological finds have proven that the bible was wrong, as far as I know. It is also noteworthy that the bible was a forbidden book for a long time in the post-Jesus history, and what religions have made from the bible, that has nothing to so with God. Church history cannot be used as an argument for or against the bible IMO. And yes, the writers were imperfect humans, and they colored what they wrote. I also think the bible in its current accepted form is incomplete. Also fulfilled prophecy argues for the bible. What about Jesus warning the christians to flee Jerusalem. Is that not proven to have happened, and they indeed fled? or the way Babylon was conquered by the Persians, after 70 years of supremacy? If you can imagine yourself in the feet of people living at the time, with way less general knowlege and the world being limited to 1/3 of a continent, chances are likely that the bible can be accepted as a divine book.

  Hoffnung
• 

  nugget

  Not inspired, some historical context is of interest, has been used for bad more than good. Much like the Koran just older.
• 

  Black Sheep

  I was born again.

  It was a nice experience at the time, but it wasn't real. I had been giving the NT more credit than it was due. I can easily understand how 'annointed' etc. feel they get their calling.

  Eventually I realised that the bits that didn't make sense didn't make sense because they didn't make sense, not because I was stupid or needed guidance from someone who had an imaginary friend who told them stuff.

  There are no writings that are God's thoughts about man...... and I don't have a problem with that.

  Cheers

  Chris

  My imaginary friend has a real friend to talk to