What is your definition of a "Fundi" or a Fundamentalist?

by brotherdan 236 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • superpunk
    superpunk

    I am sure that if you ask a JW or a fundi that they wil be able to tell you EXACTLY what you want to hear.

    And now you have a partial understanding of why some do become fundmentalists, because they WANT the answers GIVIN to them in a noce, neat package without doubts and issues and conflict and most of all, any owrk on THEIR part.

    It has nothing to do with wanting prepackaged answers, it has to do with the intellectual dishonesty of a group of people who all claim to know and be worshipping and actively communicating with the same Deity being unable to reach an agreement about almost anything. When you discuss how that deity feels about "Topic X" or what the deity in Holy Book Y says about Topic Z and receive an infinite number of different answers it becomes clear that NONE of them are actually communicating with this entity, they are all merely expressing their own opinion. Which is fine if they would merely present it as "Stuff we are making up as we go" rather than theology or doctrine.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    It has nothing to do with wanting prepackaged answers, it has to do with the intellectual dishonesty of a group of people who all claim to know and be worshipping and actively communicating with the same Deity being unable to reach an agreement about almost anything.

    As far as I am concerned, whatever it is that these kinds of people on this board claim has been revealed to them is valid for them alone. I do not have to accept it as true in any way, and I often do not. Private revelation, if it is even revelation, is binding on no one but on whom it is revealed. In this, it seems that I am in agreement with you.

    However, I will repeat your quote, and for the sake of discussion, provide a lyrical response:

    It has nothing to do with wanting prepackaged answers, it has to do with the intellectual dishonesty of a group of people who all claim to know and be worshipping and actively communicating with the same Deity being unable to reach an agreement about almost anything.

    Six Wise Men of Hindustan

    There were six men of Hindustan,
    to learning much inclined,
    Who went to see an elephant,
    though all of them were blind,
    That each by observation
    might satisfy his mind.

    The first approached the elephant,
    and happening to fall
    Against his broad and sturdy side,
    at once began to bawl,
    "This mystery of an elephant
    is very like a wall."

    The second, feeling of the tusk,
    cried, "Ho, what have we here,
    So very round and smooth and sharp?
    To me 'tis mighty clear,
    This wonder of an elephant
    is very like a spear."

    The third approached the elephant,
    and happening to take
    The squirming trunk within his hands,
    thus boldly up and spake,
    "I see," quoth he,
    "the elephant is very like a snake."

    The fourth reached out an eager hand,
    and felt above the knee,
    "What this most wondrous beast
    is like is very plain" said he,
    "'Tis clear enough the elephant
    is very like a tree."

    The fifth who chanced to touch the ear
    said, "E'en the blindest man
    Can tell what this resembles most;
    deny the fact who can;
    This marvel of an elephant
    is very like a fan."

    The sixth no sooner had begun
    about the beast to grope,
    Than seizing on the swinging tail
    that fell within his scope;
    "I see," said he, "the elephant
    is very like a rope."

    So six blind men of Hindustan
    disputed loud and long,
    Each in his own opinion
    exceeding stiff and strong;
    Though each was partly in the right,
    they all were in the wrong!

    BTS

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    It has nothing to do with wanting prepackaged answers, it has to do with the intellectual dishonesty of a group of people who all claim to know and be worshipping and actively communicating with the same Deity being unable to reach an agreement about almost anything. When you discuss how that deity feels about "Topic X" or what the deity in Holy Book Y says about Topic Z and receive an infinite number of different answers it becomes clear that NONE of them are actually communicating with this entity, they are all merely expressing their own opinion. Which is fine if they would merely present it as "Stuff we are making up as we go" rather than theology or doctrine.

    While I appreciate your zeal and I have noticed by your posting style that you throw words like "intellectually dishonest" without much regard to what it implies, I do feel that you are being a tad rude and close minded, no offense.

    You seem to be under this belief that Christiuan don't agree on anything, as opposed to not agreeing on everything.

    We agree on what matters:

    Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the only SOn of God, the died for US and on the 3rd day was ressurected and will come again.

    We believe in Our Lord's divine grace By which we are justified and saved.

    We believe in Love for our fellow man and that this love comes from Our Lord and the HS given to Us, in Us.

    I could go on, buT i hope you get the point.

    As for the rest, YES !!!

    We are expressing out own opinion, just liek you are and everyone else here.

    Just like the Apostles did and the chruch fathers did and scholars and writers have done and are still doing TODAY.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    The six blind men and the elephant is a faulty argument. Very faulty in fact.

    The real point of the story is constantly overlooked. The story is told from the point of view of someone that is NOT blind but can see that the blind men are unable to grasp the full reality of the elephant and are only able to get hold of part of it. The story is constantly told in order to neutralize the affirmations of the great religions, to suggest that they learn humility and recognize that none of them can have more than one aspect of the truth.

    But, of course, the real point of the story is exactly the opposite. If the storyteller were also blind, there would be no story. What this means then is that there is an appearance of humility and a protestation that the truth is much greater than anyone of us can grasp. But if this is used to invalidate all claims to discern the truth, it is in fact an arrogant claim with the kind of knowledge which is superior that you have just said, no religion has.

    To say, "I don’t know which religion is true" is an act of humility. To say, "none of the religions have truth, no one can be sure there’s a god" is actually to assume you have the kind of knowledge, you just said no other person, no other religion has. See, it’s a kind of arrogant thing to say nobody can know the truth because it’s a universal truth claim. To say, ‘Nobody can make universal truth claims.’ That is a universal truth claim. ‘Nobody can see the whole truth.’ You couldn’t know that unless you think you see the whole truth. And, therefore, you’re doing the very thing you say religious people shouldn’t do.

    Do you see the self defeating argument in using this parable?

  • superpunk
    superpunk

    As far as I am concerned, whatever it is that these kinds of people on this board claim has been revealed to them is valid for them alone. I do not have to accept it as true in any way, and I often do not. Private revelation, if it is even revelation, is binding on no one but on whom it is revealed. In this, it seems that I am in agreement with you.

    As for the rest, YES !!!

    We are expressing out own opinion, just liek you are and everyone else here.

    Just like the Apostles did and the chruch fathers did and scholars and writers have done and are still doing TODAY.

    Do you believe God communicates with his followers via prayer?

    I think I read earlier in this thread and others various instances of a believer saying "Yes I was confused about such and such, but I prayed about it and God revealed to me so and so...you should do the same."

    That is where it no longer becomes just your opinion on a matter. You've asserted an absolute - that God discussed a topic with you. Therefore there are only a few options if another believer comes along, claims that they also talked with God about that topic, however they received an entirely different answer.

    1. You are full of it.

    2. They are full of it.

    3. You're both full of it.

    4. God is screwing with you.

    Maybe there are a few other conclusions, I dunno.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    Geisler and Turek, in their book, I Don’t Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST, six characteristics of truth:

    · Truth is discovered, not invented. It exists independently of anyone’s knowledge of it. (Gravity existed prior to Newton)

    · Truth is transcultural; if something is true, it is true for all people, in all places, at all times (2+2=4)

    · Truth is unchanging even though our beliefs about truth change (When we began to believe the earth was round instead of flat, the truth about the earth didn’t change, only our belief about the earth changed.)

    · Beliefs cannot change a fact, no matter how sincerely they are held. (Someone can sincerely believe the world is flat, but that only makes the person sincerely mistaken.)

    · Truth is not affected by the attitude on the one professing it. (An arrogant person does not make the truth he professes false. A humble person does not make the error he professes true.)

    · All truths are absolute truths. Even truths that appear to be relative are absolute. (For example, “I brotherdan, feel warm on February 17, 2011” may appear relative truth, but it is actually absolutely true for everyone, everywhere that brotherdan had the sensation of warmth on that day.)

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Do you believe God communicates with his followers via prayer?

    Yes, in a way that they can relate.

    BUT and this is a crucial BUT, we have to be careful as to WHICH voice we are hearing, there is only ONE voice and that is the voice of Christ and that voice CAN NOT lead to pain, fear, hate, intolerance and can ONLY lead to love.

    Any othe voice is to be disregarded.

    I think I read earlier in this thread and others various instances of a believer saying "Yes I was confused about such and such, but I prayed about it and God revealed to me so and so...you should do the same."

    See the above.

    That is where it no longer becomes just your opinion on a matter. You've asserted an absolute - that God discussed a topic with you. Therefore there are only a few options if another believer comes along, claims that they also talked with God about that topic, however they received an entirely different answer.

    We are faulty and falliable humans, I could be wrong, you could be she coudl be we all could be.

    1. You are full of it.
    2. They are full of it.
    3. You're both full of it.
    4. God is screwing with you.
    Maybe there are a few other conclusions, I dunno.

    Neither do I, but I try of find out.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    Thomas Paine makes an interesting point in "Age of Reason". Paine wrote that a revelation can only be considered valid for the original recipient. When it is then communicated by the recipient to a second person, it becomes hearsay, a secondhand accounting, and consequently the second person is not obliged to believe it.

    Does that answer your question? I can't make you believe that I prayed and that my prayer was answered. That's a personal matter between God (if He exists) and me.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Well, personal revelation has always been that, PERSONAL.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    Do you see the self defeating argument in using this parable?

    No, I do not. It think it is a valid parable.

    I believe God is too great for any one human mind to grasp.

    To use the parable, we are blind men only able to sense one part of the elephant. The entire thing is beyond our ability to comprehend. To affirm this for myself is humility. To affirm otherwise is arrogance.

    Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    1 Corinthians 13:12

    As Christians, we both believe in what has been revealed through Jesus Christ, but there will be more to learn in the life to come.

    BTS

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