by AGuest 75 Replies latest jw friends
Romans 3 clearly describes Jesus' violent death as part of god's plan to forgive sin and to justify his forgiveness of sin that took place in the past.
Paul describes how god publicly displayed Jesus' corpse as a sacrifice for propitiation.
Only a blood sacrifice would do to appease god's wrath.
I know, you only believe little bits and pieces from the bible and suppliment that with stuff god tells you personally.
Trevor - I understand that your lack of faith -in the Father of Christ as God- stems from more than the one issue I mentioned. (I hope and think you have applied that one issue to all other reasons you would recognize a lie -such as sending a person to eternal hellfire - because I think the traditional doctrine of hell has destroyed faith as well, instead of just destroying the lie about God)
Logically I would expect God to expose the lies of man presented in any book that claims he is the author. If a book was brought out that claimed to be written by any person in power, that named him and made numerous damning false claims about him and contained lies, the ruler would have a responsibility to publicly disclaim that book and take steps to stop it being printed. More so with a God who created the very humans that are being misled.
First and most important, God sent us His Son to teach us and to lead us. If we look to Him, then we will recognize falsehoods and lies and false claims in God's name, and there are a lot of false claims made in His name - not just from the bible. But He did warn us and He did tell us to listen to His Son. The whole work that God asks of us is that. Even the bible says this, and yet people overlook that and turn back to the OT and law for their answers.
Humans are being misled because they are listening to other humans instead of Christ. It is our own fault if we choose to mislead and/or be misled. God sent us His Son.
I'll try and relate by telling a personal story.
Up until the jw's taught me the trinity doctrine (so they could un-teach it - though I had never even heard of it before), the only thing that I had trouble with was the Jesus is Michael. As soon as the trinity was introduced, I had NO peace. Mainly because there was so much more 'evidence' for a trinity than there was for Jesus is Michael, and yet they accepted the second and denounced the first.
I was determined that the proof was in the bible, and that I would find it. So I searched and scoured the scriptures, looking for PROOF one way or the other. I paced, I ranted, I raved... I was frustrated with God for not laying it out in black and white - yes, I am a trinity or no I am not a trinity. (something along those lines)
Of course I never found the answer in the bible. Why? Well, for one... I don't think its in there because I don't think it IS, and so it was a man-made doctrine that was messing me up and that I was giving power to men and their teachings- not God or His Son.
I stopped one day; I'd had enough scouring for an answer that continued to elude me. But I didn't give up on my faith. I was sitting in my car one day, and I just let it all go (the frustration, the fear, the confusion, the doctrines, the need to be right and have all the answers, etc), and I asked God to please just guide me where I should be. I still didn't get that I should be listening to Christ alone - that God sent Him and all these misconceptions and false claims could so easily be overturned just by listening to Christ.) In that moment, such a feeling of peace came over me. I truly did 'cast my worries onto Him', and received peace at once.
You said that God has not bothered to act. But He did. He did the one thing that we needed, (and still need) which was send His Son and tell us to look to Him. That is all we have to do, but we don't. Who should bear the blame for that, but us?
And even if... even if... one cannot yet put their faith in Spirit, then one should at least acknowledge that when reading the bible and taking cues, knowledge and lessons from it, that one should put the written word and example of Christ over anything else written within it's pages.
Tammy
Cofty - Do you recall the place in the bible where people were asking about divorce? Christ asked what Moses told them, and they said that he allowed the men to send their wives away with a certificate of divorce.
"Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."
It was Moses who made allowance for their inability/unwillingness to do what God actually wanted. There are other laws like that in the many that were given out by Moses. Women were unclean during menstruation, and so was everything they touched... and yet Christ did not rebuke the bleeding woman who touched his robe, or yell "Cooties, cooties!!!"
Of course we should look to Christ's example first!
God did not want the sacrifice of bulls, pigeons, etc... there are enough scriptures that attest to this, though you seem focused on the ONE that I put which says obedience/mercy is better than sacrifice and burnt offerings. But the others, and still others I did not list that are also clear, emphasize that God did not want sacrifice at all - such as Hosea 6:6.
But perhaps the people themselves needed it; perhaps it was all they could understand.
And by the scripture above, it is clear that Moses did himself (at least this one time) make allowance in the law because of what the people were willing or able to accept.
You have to reject the entire priesthood arrangement as fraudulent and almost every OT writer as deluded.
Or just a shadow doing the best they could before the Truth (Christ) came.
(am off to McDonald's with the starving kids now, its where they want to go and eat on family day)
Tammy
God did not want the sacrifice of bulls, pigeons, etc
I don't know where to begin Tammy, you ignore the entire narrative of the bible and focus on a handful of texts devoid of context.
How the hell did I end up defending the bible?
How the hell did I end up defending the bible?
Um... it was my evil plan all along?
(j/k)
I do read the context... but I don't know what context you think I disregarded. I also don't know how you can ignore the text that I quoted above... and/or not apply that same concept to other things?
I also don't think Christ attacked God's law at all, and neither do I... though love is greatest and the rest flow from that. But they weren't all God's laws... and there were misapplications/mistranslations/and allowances made according to what the people could/would handle.
This seems very clear to me.
Tammy
Dearest Trevor and Cofty, peace to you both! Since your comments were directed to dear Tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!), I will let her respond to your questions, as I have no doubt my Lord will assist her. I look forward to it!
So no pressure, hmm? LOL!!
Peace and love to you as well... and also to Trevor and Cofty :)
Tammy
Romans 3 clearly describes Jesus' violent death as part of god's plan to forgive sin and to justify his forgiveness of sin that took place in the past.
Lesser men than my Lord have had demanded of them... and given... their lives in MUCH more violent deaths for others, dear Cofty (peace to you!). So your issue with this is... well, interesting, to say the least. Man demands the violent death of all sorts of men... as well as women and children... for all sorts of reasons including, but certainly not limited to, their own selfish desire for power. Some, for much less (i.e., the "thrill" of it). Rarely is it truthfully on behalf of others (when demanded) and virtually NEVER on behalf of their enemies.
The Most Holy One of Israel, however, gave only One... and one of whom He was MOST fond. And not on behalf of Himself or other spirit beings... not only on behalf of those who knew of and worshipped Him... not only on behalf of some... but on behalf of ALL... including His (and that One's) enemies. Why? So that He didn't have to require it from YOU... on your own behalf... or others on behalf of theirs... which He certainly could have done. Because there is a wage (price) for sin: death. But you overlooked more in that chapter:
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindnessthrough the releaseby the redemption that is in Christ [Jesus]"...
That redemption "price" isn't paid to God, dear one; it is Death who exacts that price... because Adham sold the right of exaction TO Death. The Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, could have simply washed His hands and said, "Ah, well... it was, after all, Adham's choice. His children, his choice."
I personally find it... ummmmm, interesting, though... that you take issue with the Most Holy One of Israel giving His Son... in whatever manner and however He chose and/or allowed that to occur... which He did out of His love for YOU... rather than having some feeling of gratitude. I know, I know... He didn't HAVE to do it for you, no one asked Him to do it for you, you certainly didn't ask Him to do it for you. Yes. Perhaps, then, in the end, it won't be applied to you after all - I mean, since perhaps you have no desire... or need... for it.
Paul describes how god publicly displayed Jesus' corpse as a sacrifice for propitiation.
It was men who scourged him, impaled him, put him up on that pole, and pierced him, dear one. The Most Holy One of Israel simply allowed it... again, for YOU.
Only a blood sacrifice would do to appease god's wrath.
You are in error. on two accounts, dear one. First, it was not God's wrath that called for appeasing: it was the price for sin that DEATH exacts. A life... for a life. Death was supposed to have YOUR life... and mine... and all of mankind's. Because Adham sold that right TO Death. He sold us into sin... and to Death. Someone had to pay the price to buy us all back, right? And we HAD to be bought back. But YOU couldn't do it. I can't do it. Who, then? That those who chose to put my Lord to death did so SO heinously is not the doing of the Father. Indeed, when he was to be disciplined for taking an illegal census, David chose to be disciplined by God rather than men because, as HE (David) said:
"I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men."
Which is the basis for the second reason why your thinking is in error: the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, stood out of the way and allowed what occurred with my Lord to do so as it did... to SHOW... just HOW wicked and evil man can be, HOW grave his error. Why? To show HOW righteous my Lord was in giving his life... and the Most Holy One of Israel in allowing such life to be given... WHEN THEY FORGAVE THEM.
I know, you only believe little bits and pieces from the bible and suppliment that with stuff god tells you personally.
Another error. The Most Holy One of Israel very rarely tells me anything at all. If anything, it's to listen to His Son... and it is HE, the Son (who is NOT God), who does speak and tell me things. However, not one of them has been a lie or error... and if you would condescend to listen to him as well, you would know that.
You obviously have issues you wish to take up as to the "hand" of the Most Holy One of Israel, dear Cofty. I would say that by all means, ask of Him as to the things you wish to know. Do as Abraham and Moses did. Tell Him to gird up HIS loins and answer as YOU question HIM. But take care to be sure you really understand who it is that you're asking. Because He will respond. And I do not mean that as a threat. I simply mean that with the same judgment that YOU judge... and you are judging... you will be judged. It really does work that way. Even if the one you're judging is the Most Holy One of Israel.
So, got a pile of stones standing ready? By all means, toss away. But don't be surprised if one land's in your own "house", at your own feet... or even upside your own dear head. I speak from experience and, again, bid you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
So no pressure, hmm?
NEVER, my dear one (peace to you!). Not at ALL! Only faith. Pure and simple!
Peace, child!
Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ...
Shelb
I know, Shelby :)
It was one of those brief, eye-widening, 'wh... what?' moments, that had me laughing at myself a second later.
Tammy
