Abusive Women and manipulation

by Lady Lee 62 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Mmmm...

    Interesting responses, but I am dismayed at the antique attitude displayed by the article... It almost sounds as if we're back in the late 1940's to the 1950's, when women were supposedly "catty, vindictive, petty, manipulative, sneaky, cowardly"... And so on. You pick your insulting term indicating weakness and mental or emotional fragility and use it against women in general...

    Remember, the 40's and 50's were a time when the men retuning from World War II needed jobs. During the war, many, many women had gone into the work force - and had performed quite well, despite the general prejudice against them at the time. After the war, however, when many women might have wanted to RETAIN the independence and self-reliance that came from being gainfully employed outside of the home, they were instead forced to relinquish their employment in favor of returning war veterans.

    Much of the backlash against women that one saw in the 1950's was a response to that economic and social pressure...

    Let me offer a different viewpoint...

    Ironically, I was told of the book and information I'm about to present, when I was complaining about the most offensive female supervisor [as I mentioned above] to a journalism major who was roomate with my fiancee'. As I made comments about the "cattiness" of women, the tendency of "women to hate women", the "petty female lowly boss", and so on; he pointed me towards a book entitled, "Men and Women of the Corporation".

    [P.S. I borrowed many of your comments, Band on The Run, because they closely matched my comments at that point in my life...]

    He especially pointed me to chapter 7, entitled "Power", and said that I would be very surprised by what I would read there. He indicated that the authors had found during their research, that the "characteristics" supposedly attributed to "women" were ACTUALLY CHARACTERISTIC OF PEOPLE WHO HAD LITTLE TO NO POWER, AND TOO MUCH RESPONSIBILITY...!!!!!!

    And I bought the book upon his suggestion, and have it in front of me. Let's see - it's been a while since I've read it...

    Chapter 7 - "Power"... Subheading, "Accountability Without Power: Sources of Bureaucratic Powerlessness" - beginning on page 186...

    "People who have authority without system power are powerless. People held accountable for the results produced b others, whose formal role gives themt he right to command but who lack informal political influence, access to resources, outside status, sponsorship, or mobility [corporate mobility..] prospects, are rendered powerless in the organization. They lack control over their own fate and are dependent on otehrs above them - others whom they cannot easily influence - while they are expected by virtue of position to be influential over those parallel or belw. Their sens of lack of control above is heightened by its contrast with the demands of an accountable authority position, that they mobiliz others in the interests of a task they may have had little part in shaping, to produce results they may have had little part in defining.

    First-line supervisors in highly routinized functions often are functionally powerless. Their situation - caught between the demands of a management hierarchy they are unlikely to enter because of low opportunity and the resistance of workers who resent their own circumstances - led classic writers on organizations to describe them as "men in the middle". (However, they are also often "women in the middle".) They have little chance to gain power through activities, since their functions do not lend themselves to the demonstration of the extraordinary, [earlier in the book, the authors discuss how accomplishment of the "extraordinary" is often a route to advancement...] nor do they generate high visibility or solutions to organizational problems. They have few rewards to distribute, since rewards are automatically given by the organization, and their need for reliable performances from workers in order to keep their own job secure, limits the exercise of other forms of power. "I'm afraid to confront the employees because they have the power to slack, to slouch, to take too much time," a supervisor of clerical workers said, "and I need them for results. I'm measured on results... They have to do it for me." Another one said, "When I ask for help, I get punished because my manager will say, 'But it's your job. If you can't do it, you shouldn't be in that job.' So, what's their job? Sending me notes telling me it's unacceptable? They're like teachers sending me a report card." .."

    Unquote...

    I'm going to stop for now, as I have other tasks to take care of. However, look at the words of these authors... Doesn't some of this sound terribly familiar, even today??? Women today aren't much more "powerful" than they've been in the last century, especially with the economic downturn and financial stresses. Women in the workforce today STILL are dealing with these issues; they've been dealing with them ever since the human race chose a social value system that valued violent, death-oriented men over the nurturing, life-oriented women [need I point out that 95% of murders and nearly every war are committed by or started by MEN???]

    And translate the above dynamics into the typical Kingdom Hall - I think you'll find that the stresses and powerlessness particular to women in general is exacerbated within the Watchtower Society...

    Is it any wonder that women under stresses will act out - often violently - towards their own offspring, under such unfavorable dynamics???

    Plus, the fact that the "feminist" movement took off in the WRONG direction from its inception with Elizabeth Cady Stanton - at least, here in the U.S.A. ... More on that, later...

    Well, gotta run. I might be able to find this book online; if I do, I'll post a link...

    Zid

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    But zid

    We aren't talking about bosses although what some of what I say describes some of the female bosses I have had but it also describes some of the male bosses I have had too. The reality is that regardless of what position a boss has in a company he or she is still a boss and has more power than those beneath them.

    Forget the labels and look at the behavior. It doesn't matter if it is a mother or father belittling a child or the boss yelling at the employees or the elders hauling someone into the back room for a "chat" or the girl or boyfriend controlling someone.

    We spend so much time looking at how men abuse power and we rarely look at how women abuse it too. We need to know what that looks like, what she does and how is some of it different and how some is the same as men. And how organizations use the same techniques. It took me a long time to begin to see the similarities.

    My second husband was a nice guy until my disability stopped me from working. They he started acting like my mother and the friend neither of whom he had never met - calling me all the time, being nice in public but raging in the house about everything and it was all my fault of course. I didn't wait for years to leave. I was out as soon as I could arrange it. I was disabled, living in a shelter for 9 months and that was far better than living with him who was like so many others in my past.

  • avishai
    avishai
    Interesting responses, but I am dismayed at the antique attitude displayed by the article... It almost sounds as if we're back in the late 1940's to the 1950's, when women were supposedly "catty, vindictive, petty, manipulative, sneaky, cowardly"... And so on. You pick your insulting term indicating weakness and mental or emotional fragility and use it against women in general...

    Really? Where? This was written by a WOMaN describing WOMEN who do these things. Who ARE these things, and abusive to boot. It's not talking about "emotionally fragile women", it's talking about abusive ones. To deny that women also have the ability to be assholes is really sexist, and deny's their humanity.

    Is it any wonder that women under stresses will act out - often violently - towards their own offspring, under such unfavorable dynamics???

    False dilemna. That's like saying "Is it any wonder the JW's are abusive to thier own members after being persecuted by so many govt.s?"

    I was beaten and abused as a child, I was abused in many ways by the JW's. And went thru alot of other shit. Does that make it OK for me to pass it on? No. I worked @ a group home for emotionally disturbed kids, went to parenting classes, read books, etc. and chose to have a child @ 32 rather than younger, because I wanted to fix it, learn as much as i could not pass it on. That's what you do.

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Lady Lee,...

    "We spend so much time looking at how men abuse power and we rarely look at how women abuse it too. We need to know what that looks like, what she does and how is some of it different and how some is the same as men. ..."

    Ah, I see what you mean... Yes, women ALSO obviously are able to abuse "power" - whatever power they may have access to... My points were, (one) that the form of abuse varies between genders because the "power" available to women is still inferior to the "power" available to men, even today...

    And that is a general statement; there will obviously be [some...] specific situations that go against that general statement...

    And (two), that the form of abuse tends to match the form of limited power/powerlessness that the person/abuser is experiencing... An abusive male is probably going to tend towards more overt forms of intimidation - shouting, violence, threats - than an abusive female, because of the very perceptions or social restrictions that many have pointed out - that females are supposedly more 'nuturing', 'non-violent', and so on...

    About the females whose behavior is aberrant from that abstract - "nuturing, non-violent, diplomatic" - one also has to take into consideration whether the female is mimicking the abuser that existed - or currently exists - in her OWN environment or childhood... I suspect that "imitating the aggressor" is the source of MANY of the experiences of physically violent females, especially - ESPECIALLY - since [as I briefly mentioned above...] the current form of "feminism" got off onto the wrong track from its inception...

    Elizabeth Cady Stanton began the feminist movement in the U.S.A. based upon HER experiences in childhood, wherein her father constantly complimented her on her intelligence, her quick mind - and then would bewail the fact that SHE WASN'T BORN A BOY!!!

    So, her response was to IMITATE MALE BEHAVIOR... Consider the intrinsic abuse of the situation, and how it later influenced the feminist movement. She - and many, many others like her - were subjected to a prejudice so base that it prevented them from enhancing their very EXISTENCE... Their FEMALE-NESS if you will, only to be considered [as George Carlin put it...] "kinda sorta equal, but not so's you'd really notice". According to that version of feminism, they had to CEASE BEING ESSENTIALLY, INTRINSICALLY FEMALE, and instead turn themselves into IMITATION MALES, on so many different levels...

    That inherent flaw in the current version of the feminist movement is the main reason, I believe, for the increased violence and murders being committed by FEMALES - they're still carrying on that "imitation male" behavior, instead of seeking out THEIR OWN INNATE FEMININE behaviors...

    Whatever those might be, if females WERE able to actually be totally free from male dominance, instead of continuing on in a "reactive" mode to male behaviors and male abstracts of what females "are" or "are supposed to be"... The "75DD" female Japanese anime cartoon "dolly", the "Supermom" - these are all MALE-generated or MALE-influenced visions of what women - "wimmin" - are "supposed" to be - and it is STILL totally out of contact with the feminine reality that exists beneath the male dominance... [Note - I'm using "dominance" in this instance as cultural dominance, not some forceful, violent, one-on-one "dominance....]

    I suspect also that the tales of violent mothers mentioned on this thread result to quite an extent from that misdirected strain of feminism which urged us to become "imitation men" in our thoughts and behaviors...

    On the other hand, there is also the sociological "taboo" - still in existence, in many places - against women showing open, naked aggression or ambition - and yes, violence too... Which pushes other forms of female anger underground; to come out in covert ways...

    Sort of a "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" situation - or a slight variation on the classical "Madonna/Whore" dichotomy - maybe, "Sneaky Bitch/Violent Bitch"...

    Not to say that women can't or don't have tempers... Can't or won't "act out"... Or have any of the other issues that generally face men, too... But the power dynamics are STILL skewed towards men, and misogynistic religions that worship Middle Eastern Male gods certainly aren't helping to defuse or resolve the situation - they're worsening it.

    And the issue is a complex mosaic. Just to confuse you, the Berber tribes of North Africa used to have a group of elders or older men who would deal with tribal issues - and they were known to include OLDER WOMEN amongst that group of tribal leaders... That may not be as common anymore, since the Berbers have begun converting to mainstream versions of Islam... On the other hand, there has also been a recent tendency towards domestic violence among the Berbers, though this also may be based on cultural mores and issues - and stresses that the tribes have been suffering, since the time of Byzantine Rome...

    As I said, a very complex issue...

    Zid

  • ziddina
    ziddina
    "It's not talking about "emotionally fragile women", it's talking about abusive ones. To deny that women also have the ability to be assholes is really sexist, and deny's their humanity. ..."

    Avisha, abusive women are usually the MOST emotionally fragile - though that's not quite how I put it....

    "You pick your insulting term indicating weakness and mental or emotional fragility ..."

    That comment was made in the context of the culture of the 1940's and 1950's when women WERE considered - or were urged to consider themselves - as too "emotionally fragile" to hold down jobs and otherwise compete with the returning male war veterans...

    But back to abusive women - their emotional fragility, since you brought it up, would be the quintessential reason for their bizarre, violent, out-of-control behavior... Emotionally stable women generally do NOT 'act out' violently. Another point - I didn't make it in the above post, but I meant to - many studies have shown that physically abused women - battered women - are MUCH MORE LIKELY to batter their own children. I don't recall what studies have been done, showing how psychologically abused women act toward and treat their children, but I suspect that many of the same behaviors might arise...

    As to your comment about:

    "...No. I worked @ a group home for emotionally disturbed kids, went to parenting classes, read books, etc. and chose to have a child @ 32 rather than younger, because I wanted to fix it, learn as much as i could not pass it on. That's what you do. ..."

    That's what we - my generation of the '60's and your generation of the 80's - 90's - did and do...

    But it's not what the earlier generations did... That wasn't their mentality, AT ALL... Wasn't even "on their radar", so to speak...

    Even in the 60's, girls were still being told that they COULDN'T be geologists, park rangers, and so on - because I wanted to be a geologist or a park ranger, and was told BY MY TEACHERS that women geologists were relegated to the classroom, and by the guest speaker - a park ranger [male] - that "females" couldn't withstand the stresses required of "real" park rangers...

    Which reinforced the Watchtower edicts against college educations, for me...

    You might want to study female history - no, better yet, get your hands on some ["Ladies Home Journal" - and others aimed specifically at women...] magazines from your mother's generation - and if you REALLY want to have your eyes opened, get your hands on some magazines from your grandmother's generation - which would be, I would guess, around the 1930's - 1940's...

    Read them, all of the articles, and then come back to the discussion...

    Zid

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    zid

    My problem with the "feminist" movement is this:

    one also has to take into consideration whether the female is mimicking the abuser that existed - or currently exists - in her OWN environment or childhood...

    Hello the exact same thing can be said about the men. They are mimicing what they saw when they were growing up.

    We can't excuse women for something and then blame men for doing the same thing. Both are responsible for breaking the chain of abuse in theri families. Too often though they wind up marrying each other and continuing the cycle of abuse on another genration.

    I know my mother isn't the average person but I think she is the average parent with a serious mental health problem. For most of her child reaering years there was no man in the house. She had total power over us. She grew up tough and knew how to take care of herself even physically fighting wioth my father when he attacked her. Not too many women can fight back when a man has his hands around her throat while he is sitting on top of her. But she fought back and is still alive because she did. But she turned that around and dumped it on us. She might not have had a lot of power outside the house but the inside was her kingdom and heaven help anyone who messed up her plans.

    It is utterly amazing I didn't turn out like my mother. It has been one of my biggest fears. And I have worked hard all my life to not be like her. And that was long before I started learnign about abuse. I just remembered how it felt when my mother did certain things and made sure I didn't do them to my kids.

    I know of plenty of families where the man sat back and let the woman rule the roost. It was easier to give in than to fight. Well it might be easier but it is crazy-making

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    can we get this back to talking about abusive women and away from feminist ideologies?

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    LOL, Lady Lee, that comment that you pulled was my comment, not a comment from the feminist movement....

    To my way of thinking, the two subjects are closely related...

    But I'll butt out now!!

    Zid

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    I know it was your comment lol

    Feminist thinking is only one way of thinking about the problem.

    I guess my focus is on what they are doing and helping people to recognize it as abuse and not the historical reasons why they do what they do.

  • avishai
    avishai

    Wow, first off, Lee I think her points do go to this topic, in that her posts are a classicexample of what lets this be hidden so often by society, and often even from the people experiencing the abuse @ the hands of women. So I'd like to address her points and tie it all in.

    And (two), that the form of abuse tends to match the form of limited power/powerlessness that the person/abuser is experiencing... An abusive male is probably going to tend towards more overt forms of intimidation - shouting, violence, threats - than an abusive female, because of the very perceptions or social restrictions that many have pointed out - that females are supposedly more 'nuturing', 'non-violent', and so on...

    Nope. I've been hit, bitten, slapped, kicked, pinched etc. by far more women than I have by men, and I was a bouncer for years. And when confronted about their violence, 99% of the time, their response wasn't, "Oh, I'm so sorry." it was "what are you, a pussy? You're a man, you can take it" or some variant thereof, whether it was someone at a club or a loved one. On this site, that myth is perpetuated http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/domestic_violence.htm#whomost Here's a paragraph

    Overwhelmingly, it's heterosexual men in relationships. However, if we refer just to the act of hitting or physically hurting another person, research statistics from the 1980's and early 1990's shows women are as likely or more likely than men to hit or physically harm a partner. But what is not well explained is many of these women who strike out are responding to a violent situation which has already been created by the male in the relationship.

    We must also understand on average men are much larger and better trained to physically defend themselves than women are; and therefore do not have the same reaction to violence directed at them. This is a very important part of battering, which for a lot of men is hard to understand. It is certainly just as wrong for a woman to hit a man as for a man to hit a woman. It's simply wrong, and no one should have to tolerate being hit by another person.

    However, in comparison, a man's reaction to a woman's violence is usually far less emotionally traumatic than a woman's reaction to a man's violent acts. The emotional reaction for men being hit by a woman is usually annoyance, anger and self-righteousness. The male might think, "She's got a lot of nerve, who does she think she is laying her hands on me".

    That is an incorrect assumption. It's not "annoyance" Or "self righteousness". It's fear. And it sucks. And your always on your toes, and can't react, other than leave. It's even worse when you are disabled, or otherwise incapacitated (my ex who weighed the same as I used to have her fun pushing me around and screwing with me when I was having seizures, or was too weak after having them to even move) it's terrifying. When your a child, and a woman is beating the shit out of you, it's not annoyance, or self righteousness, it's fear.

    You bring up the 40's and 50's. Let's go there for a sec. Remember when a woman was hysterical or talked back, a guy would slap her into line? And it was shown as being OK? When was the last time you saw that portrayed as being acceptable? And yet on any given day, you can turn on the TV and see a woman slap a man for saying something she doesn't like, and it's portrayed as totally OK. We can "handle it" and we "have it coming."

    So, her response was to IMITATE MALE BEHAVIOR... Consider the intrinsic abuse of the situation, and how it later influenced the feminist movement. She - and many, many others like her - were subjected to a prejudice so base that it prevented them from enhancing their very EXISTENCE... Their FEMALE-NESS if you will, only to be considered [as George Carlin put it...] "kinda sorta equal, but not so's you'd really notice". According to that version of feminism, they had to CEASE BEING ESSENTIALLY, INTRINSICALLY FEMALE, and instead turn themselves into IMITATION MALES, on so many different levels...

    On one hand, I totally agree with you, in that the feminist movement sold women a bill of goods to be "imitation males" rather than embracing their power as women and the unique abilities that come with being a woman. Refreshing to see it.

    However, to attribute the abusive behavior to them imitating men to me reminds me of a vegan who called the Michael Medved (himself a vegan) show and said "The reason that carnivores eat other animals is because MAN taught them too!" The host laughed so hard he had to go to a commercial. Women have had (and used) the capability for violence and abuse for millenia, it sure as hell didn't start 50 years ago.

    Nor do emotionally stable men. We're not talking about either. Yes, people who have been abused are more likely to abuse. Thank you captain obvious. And it's still no justification.

    That's what we - my generation of the '60's and your generation of the 80's - 90's - did and do...
    But it's not what the earlier generations did... That wasn't their mentality, AT ALL... Wasn't even "on their radar", so to speak...
    Even in the 60's, girls were still being told that they COULDN'T be geologists, park rangers, and so on - because I wanted to be a geologist or a park ranger, and was told BY MY TEACHERS that women geologists were relegated to the classroom, and by the guest speaker - a park ranger [male] - that "females" couldn't withstand the stresses required of "real" park rangers...

    I'm a child of the 1970's. I'm 41. And I do remember the institutionalized patriarchal attitudes, I remember the news stories about the "first female firefighter in the station" etc. But we also sell our grandmothers and great-grandmothers very short. To hear it from modern Women, you'd think they were stupid, simpering, uneducated baby machines totally dependent on male support and opinion. I knew three of my great grandmothers. All of them from very different backgrounds, and all three more skilled than almost any woman, or man that I know today. All three could raise babies, cook, hunt, shoot, sew, swing a hammer (two of them built houses with little help from their husbands) play instruments, two were published authors, one an acomplished painter. ALL of them were adults before they even had the right to vote. Amazing, wonderful people, and in spite of a society that marginalized them.

    You might want to study female history - no, better yet, get your hands on some ["Ladies Home Journal" - and others aimed specifically at women...] magazines from your mother's generation - and if you REALLY want to have your eyes opened, get your hands on some magazines from your grandmother's generation - which would be, I would guess, around the 1930's - 1940's...
    Read them, all of the articles, and then come back to the discussion...

    All sarcasm and snark aside, your attempt at condescension is wildly off base and unwarranted, and ironic. I collect old books and magazines, have numerous old ones such as Harpers weekly (big fan of Charles Dana Gibson) and yes, Ladies home journals from the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Also own ( and yes, have read) tons of womens magazines from the 50's-60's. I still use recipes from them.

    All of this aside, it doesn't change the fact that there are and were abusive women, who's abusive behavior has nothing to do with "patriarchy". It's moral equivocation of the worst kind, in my mind nearly as bad as men who hit women because she "drove him to it." Abusive behavior is a choice, and a shitty one. Copping out by pointing the finger elsewhere is lazy and counterproductive.

    But back to abusive women - their emotional fragility, since you brought it up, would be the quintessential reason for their bizarre, violent, out-of-control behavior... Emotionally stable women generally do NOT 'act out' violently. Another point - I didn't make it in the above post, but I meant to - many studies have shown that physically abused women - battered women - are MUCH MORE LIKELY to batter their own children. I don't recall what studies have been done, showing how psychologically abused women act toward and treat their children, but I suspect that many of the same behaviors might arise...

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit