The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade 382 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Spade
    Spade
    Spade....Enough with trying to prove that Cyrus' first regnal year was 538/537 BC. None of us is contesting that. Proving that Cyrus' first regnal year was 538/537 BC DOES NOT prove that he gave the decree in 537 BC as opposed to 538 BC. You were just as wrong in citing Parker & Dubberstein as you were citing Finegan (which I see you have done yet again).

    Ancient history in itself cannot be proven.

    Insight on the Scriptures pp. 448-450 Chronology

    Bible Chronology and Secular History: Concern is often expressed over the need to try to “harmonize” or “reconcile” the Biblical account with the chronology found in ancient secular records. Since truth is that which conforms to fact or reality, such coordinating would indeed be vital—if the ancient secular records could be demonstrated to be unequivocally exact and consistently reliable, hence a standard of accuracy by which to judge.


    The atheist's position to this can be summed up as “reconciling an ahistorical ancient literary text with another ahistorical ancient literary text is a bit like trying "reconcile" Grimm's Fairy Tales with the Disney versions. The only thing it tells you is that similar myths can be found among all the Semitic peoples of the Ancient Near East.” In other words, what can be “proven” is on an unstable foundation.

    If you're not an atheist and have reason to place greater confidence in the Bible as the unerring Word of God independent of myths, it can be used as a measuring tool. This means the ancient historical criteria around the prophetic date 1914 (it was a turning point in history) can be deemed accurate based on its fulfillment. Opponents of Jehovah's Witnesses, completely out of sync with the Biblical worldview seem to have binded themselves to history saturated with mythology, taking on a duplicitous, pseudo-atheistic position. It's hard to make heads or tails out of their thinking. Most secular minded individuals I've communicated with take a very different approach to the existence of God as ancient secular history in itself proves very little. Enough information exists to get a fundamental understanding of the dating criteria. These trivial details regarding ancient history prove very little.

  • villabolo
    villabolo

    Spade

    Leolaia

    Villabolo

  • miseryloveselders
    miseryloveselders

    Ya know something, I have to tell you guys something. I love Leo, she's a braniac, and a cute one at that. I love her. Her going back and forth with Spade just broke my heart. All these years I thought I knew something that only 6 million other people knew. I'm a Jehovah's Witness, a member of the true religion, and ya know what..........I didn't, and don't know shit. What a life.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Spade/AliceInWonderLand.. Leolaia..

    http://i.i.ua/photo/images/pic/6/3/1005836_152083c8.jpg

    ..................... ...OUTLAW

  • bobld
    bobld

    I thought the book "Battles of the Bible 1400BC-AD73" -----'Fall of Judah 588-586BC" is interesting.

    B

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Now that Spade has been shown that the sources s/he cites don't support what s/he wants them to support, s/he sidesteps the issue by saying "ancient history in itself cannot be proven," and then c&ps a WTS comment about secular history being too unreliable to harmonize with biblical chronology, and also throws in a little ad hominem for good measure by suggesting those that try to reconcile the two are either atheists or duplicitous! Dear me!

    You've well and truly lost this one, Spade. Time to bow out?

  • wobble
    wobble

    I asked one of the trolls, I think it may have been Spade, to explain exactly what this superior " Bible Chronology" was.

    What was its foundation? He/She talks as though the secular historians are inventing "their" chronology, and if it conflicts with what the Bible says , they must be wrong.

    There is no way of working out when events mentioned in the Bible occured without using secular chronology.

    I never got any reply explaining how this "Bible" chronology worked, let alone how it could be considered superior to established chronology.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    SPADE: Your focus on the "decree" by Cyrus is bogus!

    I'd like you to consider that the "word going forth to rebuild Jerusalem" which has been translated as "command" or "decree" was the actual literal command to rebuild! That is, the word that is given like at a ground-breaking ceremony.

    In other words, this is not the decree of a king to begin to rebuild. This is the actual command when they are on site to officially begin the work. That way, the very MONTH of that command will be used to calculate the 70 weeks. That is critical because "gift and sacrifice" must end specifically at mid-week. That is, Christ must die specifically at mid-week. Since that is precisely at passover time at the beginning of Spring, the 70 weeks must begin in a month-specific time, the only option being month 7.

    Of course, you well know the work is recorded to begin specifically on the 1st day of the 7th month. That is when the "word" or "command" went forth to begin the rebuilding. So in those times, when a major building project was undertaken, there must have been some type of a formal ceremony to begin the work and during the ceremony, likely some official picked up a spade or shovel and officially began the work like we still do today in our ground-breaking ceremonies where officials come out with a silver shoven or something and actually begin the digging, etc. So the Jews would have recognized the "word going forth to rebuild" as a ceremonial official beginning of the work. Thus this "word" or command to actually begin the work took place on the 1st day of the 7th month which begins the count-down of the 70 weeks to the time of the messiah at the end of 69 weeks. But specifically also to the time of the year, which would be the Fall.

    So, SPADE, now step back and reflect on the spiritual and messianic applications of the two week-long festivals of the Jews, that are 6 months apart. Passover is when Christ dies and is given in sacrifice. But the Festival of Booths, which is celebrated during the 7th month is about how God comes down to dwell with mankind in a both. That is, that Christ would come down to earth and be born in a manger, which means in an animal booth, an when he began his ministry, he would not be part of the royal priesthood, which is represented as the house, but outside the priesthood, and thus represented as a booth outside the house.

    Thus we know from the FOB that Christ must begin his ministry in the fall, actually in direct connection with the Festival of Booths. In fact, his circumcision on the 8th day of life fulfills the special sabbath on the 8th day of the Festival of Booths.

    CONCLUSION: You are barking up a wrong tree when you presume without exclusion that the "command to rebuild Jerusalem" is a decree by some king. It is not, necessarily. Instead, I prefer to recognize it is the official ceremonial command to begin the work at a special ground-breaking ceremony much as we do today and that specific event in a specific month is when the 70 weeks must officially begin.

    So forget about Leo and Ann on this point. It's a catch-22 issue but not a Biblical point at all.

    But if you want to debate with them, remind them both that Darius the Mede, per the Bible, rules for a full 6 years before Cyrus comes to the throne. As well, Dariius the Mede was a grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II. So the "royalty of Persia" does not include the 6-year rule of Darius the Mede. Thus when Babylon was conquered by Cyrus and Darius and Darius ruled over Babylon, it was still the Neo-Babylonian empire. Further, it seems as though Nabonidus, the #1 king was still at large at the time. He would not have been conquered and imprisoned until "Cyrus the PERSIAN" that is, the "royalty of Persia" began to rule.

    So for clarity: The 70 year desolation does not end until Cyrus takes over from Darius the Mede. Darius the Mede was still part of the Neo-Babylonian line of kings since he was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar. That's why you are having confusion because you don't realize the 6-year (revised 2-year) rule of Darius the Mede was not the "royalty of Persia" nor the end of the NB empire.

    Leo and Ann are always going to win the critical arguments where you are misinterpreting or misunderstanding the Bible. So you must understand the correct Biblical interpretation and then defend that and you will win against the anti-Biblical propagandists.

    But KEEP POSTING! There is someting about your posts that irritate the anti-Biblicalists, so I'm quite pleased! The more people discuss and understand the details or even opposing views, the better. What they really wish is that you'd shut the f*$k up, but you won't, so that's great!!! Their best defense is ignorance of the facts. Darkness is what they want, not light. I say the more light the better!

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    SPADE:

    Bible Chronology and Secular History: Concern is often expressed over the need to try to “harmonize” or “reconcile” the Biblical account with the chronology found in ancient secular records. Since truth is that which conforms to fact or reality, such coordinating would indeed be vital—if the ancient secular records could be demonstrated to be unequivocally exact and consistently reliable, hence a standard of accuracy by which to judge.

    Spade. You are on the right track: Investigation and discussion. You just need more information. I've just discovered some of your writings. Here is something you need to know.

    MARTIN ANSTEY. Martin Anstey in 1913 wrote his "Romance of Bible Chronology." He interpreted the "70 weeks" prophecy to be fulfilled in the 1st of Cyrus without exception and thus dated the 1st of Cyrus 483 years prior to the baptism of Christ. I agree with him. The 70 weeks prophecy must begin in 455 BCE but also that 455 BCE must match year 1 of Cyrus!

    Martin Anstey, therefore, also determined that there were 82 years too many during the Persian Period! This seems like a lot of years to get rid of, but it really isn't. You can remove all those fake years by the time of the reign of Artaxerxes III in 358 BCE. As follows:

    -1 Kambyses

    -30 Darius I (per Ezra 6:14,15)

    -21 Xerxes who is Artaxerxes (per Ezra 6:14,15 compared to Daniel 11:2)

    -30 Artaxerxes II, 47 years reduced to 17 years.

    82 years all done!

    YOU are not like the others since you have to follow the Bible. So your next focus needs to be EZRA 6:14,15 which clearly shows that the king named Artaxerxes was king of Persia in the 6th year of Darius and that he is the king who actually last worked on the temple at Jerusalem. That doesn't work with revised secular history because a 36-year rule of Darius I is followed by a 21-year rule of Xerxes before Artaxerxes I comes on the scene. But once you know that "Artaxerxes" was the double-name for Xerxes, which was common for Persian kings to have two official names, then we know Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king and that Ezra 6:14, 15 is merely giving us the "accession year" of Xerxes/Artaxerxes.

    Now, just in case you don't know how the "accession year" system works (and I apologize if it is apparent you do), the year was numbered to the king who was ruling at the time, from Spring to Spring. If the king died that year, his successor began his "year 1" the following Spring. In the meantime, the few months of rule after the death of the previous king is called his "accession year." So that is why we find an Artaxerxes is king of Persia in the sixth year of Darius because Darius I only ruled for 6 years before the Persians expanded his rule.

    So when you date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE, then ad 70 years back to the last deportation (not destruction of Jerusalem as JW mis-teach), then 525 BCE becomes the official year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. The VAT4956 was created in the form oa diary to safely hide secret references to this original chronology. These secret references would appear as simple "errors" to the average or casual reader, which was the intent. But if you compare the errors with each other, you will see they match another year, that of 511 BCE for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar in the midst of many other observations matching 568 BCE, the revised year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar. But I bring this up because 511 BCE is year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar when his year 23 falls in 525 BCE, which is where we must place the official Biblical dating.

    Now for you, this might be a problem. That's because you cannot maintain loyalty to the WTS and have Bible truth as well. Case in point, note how they lyingly mislead their members in getting around Ezra 6:14,15....

    "Artaxerxes Longimanus extended permission to Ezra the priest and also to Nehemiah to make trips to Jerusalem. (Ezr 7:1-7; Ne 2:1, 7, 8) Ancient historians credit him with a generally benign and generous personality. This coincides with his actions during the seventh year of his reign (468 B.C.E.), when Longimanus granted Ezra "all his request" in a decree that provided for silver, gold, and vessels for temple use, as well as provisions of wheat, wine, oil, and salt. (Ezr 7:6, 12-23; 8:25-27) This generous contribution may explain why Artaxerxes is included along with Cyrus and Darius at Ezra 6:14 as one of those whose orders contributed to the ‘building and finishing’ of the temple, although the actual construction had been completed 47 years previous, in 515 B.C.E."

    This is from it-1, Artaxerxes. Note how they changed what Ezra 6:14,15 says, which is "built and FINISHED" to "building and finishing" as if this was an extended period of time. Sort of like how they are trying to extend the "last generation" I suppose. But the Bible clearly shows it was FINISHED in the sixth year of Darius by Artaxerxes, the King of Persia. Since they are fooled by the revised chronology which adds 30 years to the reign of Darius I, they have to twist the scriptures and imply "built and finished" mean "building and finishing" and thus not deal with the question of whether Xerxes' alternative name was Artaxerxes!! So they are confused and dishonest!! You can't support that and still think you can have TRUTH. This is one reason why the WTS GB is called the "man of lawlessness" at 2 Thess 4:2.

    Time is running out. Soon the WTS and Christendom will be tossed into the lake of fire. They are both part of Babylon the Great now. That's why Revelation says, "Get out of her MY people!" That means Jehovah's people who originally came to the organization are now in Babylon the Great since Jehovah has abandoned the WTS now! The GB was disfellowshipped by Jehovah on November 10, 1992.

    Now, I had it easy, because I was never really impressed with the Society. I always thought there were two agendas. For instance, while standing at Dodger's Stadium in the summer of 1975, that incredible build-up year by the WTS, the closing comments, they were saying how they were reluctantly booking venues for the assemblies for the next year because you have to book these stadiums a year in advance, even though it was clear they were expecting Armageddon that very year!! But then, shock! They also mentioned that they were also increasing their printing facilities and buying new presses and all that. That is, they were not going to slow down one bit in the preaching work, regardless of their 1975 theory. That's so "just in case" (vomit!) 1975 wasn't correct, they wouldn't be caught slowing down.

    It thought that was amazing, but I also concluded, like 1925 and other false dates, they were now developing a reputation for false dates so I wasn't worried. Even so, I admired the focus of some at WTS headquarters who clearly didn't buy the 1975 propaganda. They were not going to stop but were going to move full speed ahead. So dumping the WTS as the "evil slave" and the "man of lawlessness" was just part of the process for me. But if you haven't been critical of them and their false teachings. It's painful to let go. But you must! You must prove a "wise virgin" and go down the narrow path. The broad road of going along with big-time religion will not get you to life. You must love Jehovah and yourself more than an organization which Jehovah has abandoned.

    So if you want ANSWERS, your own personal ANSWERS to the Bible's truth, you have to dump 607 BCE, ignore Leo and Ann and Olof, and follow your own instincts after looking at ALL the research. In the end, you will have to date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE. There is no other alternative. When you do, everything else will work out. But note that Darius the Mede ruled for 6 years before Cyrus came to the throne to release the Jews and Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar so the Babylonian empire continued 6 years after the overthrow. That's a technicality you are having problems with. The Bible is accurate. The 70 years ended when the "royalty of Persia" came, which is Cyrus, but not Darius!

    Anyway, keep posting!!! The more light the better!!

    LS

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Moses talks to the Israelites..

    "Once we cross the Red Sea..We`re going to New York."

    "New York has a 607 Area Code!"

    http://www.searchviews.com/wp-content/themes/clean-copy-full-3-column-1/images/plague-moses-2.jpg

    ........................ ...OUTLAW

    ROFL!!! Cute outlaw!! You have a few more months to post this funny stuff before Armageddon!!! Keep 'em coming!!!

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