by Spade 382 Replies latest watchtower bible
Lars..
Your never going to beat Leo or Ann in a ancient history debate..
You should stick to being Jesus and Doing Miracles..
Everyone is going to need a few laughs at Armageddon..
Have you decided if your going to turn Spade/AliceInWonderLand into a Funny Prostitute?..
........................ 
...OUTLAW
Am totally out of my league here but one thing that has always bugged me and that I have seen ignored here too - is the land did not become "totally" empty until Neb's 23rd year - which must be 582 (not 586) so there is not a real sabbath for the land until that happens - yes Judah went off into exile per the scriptures in 586 BC but the emptying of the land did not occur for another five years - Jeremiah 52:30 - so all the stuff about a 70 year sabbath cannot work even if one wanted to say it began in 607 - he would have to begin it in 602 BC and have the exodus from Babylon occur in 532 BC instead. "For in the 23rd year of Nebuchadrezzar, Nebuzaradan the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile - seven hundred and thirty two souls. Maybe I am thick of skull and have missed something along the way."
I have seen ignored here too - is the land did not become "totally" empty until
You're right, except I covered it quite extensively above. There is ample proof that this idea that the land was 100% uninhabited is completely false. Here is the link again.
Now that Spade has been shown that the sources s/he cites don't support what s/he wants them to support, s/he sidesteps the issue by saying "ancient history in itself cannot be proven," and then c&ps a WTS comment about secular history being too unreliable to harmonize with biblical chronology, and also throws in a little ad hominem for good measure by suggesting those that try to reconcile the two are either atheists or duplicitous! Dear me!
You've well and truly lost this one, Spade. Time to bow out?
saltyoldlady.....Also the Babylonians would have not let the agricultural bounty in their conquered land (a major production center for wine and olive oil) go untapped; in fact we know from 2 Kings 25:12 and Jeremiah 39:10, 52:16 that soon after the destruction of Jerusalem the Babylonians let the poor agricultural workers remain on the land to cultivate it and they also set up an administrative center at Mizpah (cf. 2 Kings 25:23, Jeremiah 40:6-15). Although biblical sources do not relate what happened in the land of Judah after the assassination of Gedaliah in c. 582 BC, there is no reason to believe that the Babylonians abandoned it or left the land unused. We know from Ezra that when the Jews returned from exile in c. 538 BC, there were people (the `am ha-arets) already living in the land, some resettled peoples, who were in close enough proximity to Jerusalem to object to the activity there. The present archaeological consensus is that while urban centers like Jerusalem and Ashkelon were destroyed and depopulated, the situation in the agricultural region of Benjamin (with the administration centered at Mizpah) remained relatively unchanged. The abstract for Oded Lipschits' article "The Rural Settlement of Judah in the Sixth Century B.C.E." (Palestine Exploration Journal, 2004:99-107), states:
"The present paper claims that the major and most conspicuous archaeological phenomenon in Judah after the destruction of Jerusalem is the sharp decline in urban life, which is in contrast to the continuity of the rural settlements in the region of Benjamin and in the area between Bethlehem and Beth Zur. These archaeological investigations demonstrate that a new pattern of settlement was created in Judah, in which the core settlements were destroyed or abandoned while, at the same time, the surrounding region continued to exist almost unchanged. The differences between the various regions of this small kingdom should be understood as the outcome of a planned Babylonian policy of using some of the rural highland areas as a source for agricultural products. The settlement in those areas became a place of specialized wine and oil production, and was used both for paying the taxes and supplying the basic products for the Babylonian administration and forces stationed in the area. A similar situation is detectable in the area south of Rabbath-Ammon, around Tell el 'Unieiri and Tell Hesban, and perhaps also in the Baq'ah region, north of Rabbath-Ammon" (p. 99).
Among the finds discovered at Neo-Babylonian era Mizpah include: three Babylonian-style bathtub-shaped coffins located near buildings indicative of Mesopotamian instead of Israelite burial practices, a bronze circlet displaying an Akkadian cuneiform inscription, an ostracon bearing an inscription written in Hebrew characters of a Babylonian name (Mar-Sharri-Usur) indicative of both Jewish and Babylonian settlement in Mizpah, and a significant number of "Mozah" jar handles in a distribution largely limited to the land of Benjamin and centered at Mizpah (which are later than pre-exilic LMLK jars and earlier than Persian-era Yehud jars).
True, he did. But the Bible is quite specific. The 'royalty of Persia' is not descended from or related to Nebuchadnezzar. Judah's and the other nations' servitude to the 'king of Babylon,' as defined in Scripture, was to cease once the Babylonian empire was overthrown by Persia.
(2 Chronicles 36:20) "Furthermore, he [Neb.] carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign"
(Jeremiah 27:7) "And all the nations must serve even him [Neb.] and his son and his grandson until the time even of his own land comes, and many nations and great kings must exploit him as a servant.'"
And despite all the c&ps, you still ignore the fact that nobody knows for sure WHEN in Cyrus' first year he issued the decree. There is a good case to be made for him issuing the decree in the EARLY part of his first year (as others have already shown you), thereby resulting in the exiles being settled back in their homeland by the seventh month 538 BCE.
Scripture also clearly specifies that the 70 years would be years of devastation of the land of Judah.
And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Jeremiah 25:11
And I will make Jerusalem piles of stones, the lair of jackals; and the cities of Judah I shall make a desolate waste, without an inhabitant. Jeremiah 9:11
The prophecy didn't reach its fulfillment until the Jews returned to their homeland.
I said no such thing.....Spade/AliceInWonderLand
Yes you did..
Do you think no one can see what you`ve written?..
........................ ...OUTLAW
Now that Spade has been shown that the sources s/he cites don't support what s/he wants them to support, s/he sidesteps the issue by saying "ancient history in itself cannot be proven," and then c&ps a WTS comment about secular history being too unreliable to harmonize with biblical chronology, and also throws in a little ad hominem for good measure by suggesting those that try to reconcile the two are either atheists or duplicitous! Dear me!
You've well and truly lost this one, Spade. Time to bow out?
Scripture also clearly specifies that the 70 years would be years of devastation of the land of Judah.
And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Jeremiah 25:11
False on many levels. Jer 25:11 is not one prophecy, but has two distinct elements. 70 years refers to servitude, not devastation. And if you try to invoke Daniel 9:2, it says Jerusalem, not Judah.
It bears repeating, because the "sabbaths” were paid off while the exiles were still in Babylon Ezra could not have meant that the reference to seventy years meant that Judah lie desolate without inhabitant exactly seventy years ending upon the exiles’ physical return in 537 B.C.E. It’s impossible. Remember, Ezra also had access to Jeremiah’s prophecy. He knew the fulfillment and timing of seventy years was tied directly to the fall of the Babylonian Empire and the rise of Persian royalty.
Even though the Jehovah’s Witnesses have attempted to merge the two parts of Jeremiah 25:11, to borrow the seventy years of servitude to improperly extend the length of devastation, in the final analysis all of this talk about seventy years of an uninhabited devastated place is moot; it is a non-existent element of Jeremiah’s prophecy. The concept of seventy years of an utterly uninhabited devastated place, an object of astonishment, is a false doctrine used to gain twenty years in order to reach 607 B.C.E. It is an illogical, unscriptural and gross misinterpretation because the seventy years pertained to the nations’ servitude to the king(s) of Babylon, not Judah’s devastation. And that is precisely what Jehovah’s prophets understood.
The Jehovah's Witnesses' understanding that Jeremiah 25:11 is a composite of “devastation” and "servitude” - that it is actually one prophecy, one indivisible unit - is flawed in yet another way because if it really is a composite it cuts both ways. This would mean that all of “these nations” which served the Babylonian Empire were also “uninhabited” places and objects of astonishment for seventy years, which contravenes history, Scripture and is patently false. The fact that the word "and" separates these two concepts does not equate them or join them together. The phrase "Frank and Henry" does not mean that "Frank is Henry."
http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-6.html
This says much about the overall character of this discussion board and why I take nothing here seriously.
Maybe you should take it seriously. Most people here do. It's important.
How the hell have I missed this thread?
Spade v Leo with illustrations by Outlaw!!
Good god this has to enter the "best of" section - just for humour induced by Spade's awesome stupidity.
