Translating the NWT in the Shadows

by JuanMiguel 123 Replies latest watchtower bible

TTWSYF

Wow, a fired up tread to say the least.
1st, my apologies if my ranting has offended the good people here. Faith, like politics and other fiery topics has people forget their manners.....I'm of course speaking of myself.
I expect no Catholic fan club on JW.net. I know that there is a wide margin of passionate beliefs here. We are speaking of the NWT, so let's not get off topic about how many books we have. We all have access to viable info at our finger tips.
Hey Terry, Thanks for your reply, you make a good point that there are no original transcripts available. Everything that we have is a copy of another. That being said, it is also noteworthy to be reminded that the Christian [and Jewish] faith and traditions were passed on orally, long before they were put to writings. When the apostles went out after the Pentecost, they did so without a new testament. They spoke the new testament orally and that was their way of teaching until the written word got confirmed. That oral tradition was the church and the written scriptures confirmed what they had already established. Right? I mean how many people were literate 2000 years ago. Hell, how many people were literate 200 years ago? Not many at all. Most were illiterate.
If you say that Mary isn't just as important why is one of the main prayers that we were taught to say repeatedly over and over the Hail Mary ? Why were we taught to pray to her? Where is the prayer to pray to Jesus?
All prayer goes to God through Jesus Christ. You know this yet you still try to convince folks [maybe yourself] that Catholics worship Mary. Of course that's not true. The Hail Mary prayer is not worship of Mary, it is asking her to pray for us. As Mary was the one who had Jesus change water to wine when Jesus didn;t want to, so can we appeal to her for her prayers on our behalf. As you are aware, the prayer of the rightous man has more weight than your average Joe. Because Mary is the most blessed woman ever, her prayers have more clout.
And while I'm on the subject of prayer...why the hell were we praying to saints?.....who says they are so holy?
We ask saints to pray for us for the same reason...prayer of the rightous man has more weight. Check Revelation and see how the angel presented the prayers of the saints with incense to God. People who knew them [saints] and witnessed their life say that they're holy by the example of their life. Catholic heirarcy will listen to the petitions and then research the subject to see what the fruits have been. Not fruits of making more Catholics, but of giving their life to the causes of charity, the poor, the sick and/or the orphaned. These same saintly subjects then must have supernatural occurances related to their interccession. Things like healings of incureable diseases, hardships, illnesses and such.
So I'm not sure who you think you are saying that I didn't check out my own faith? Since I never chose it. I was simply exposed to it.
That was so rude of me, and I'm a little embarrassed. Please accept my apologies. I thought I was talking to my own JW brother.
If you would like to compare Catholics with JW's I have a recent example for you. I asked my friend (who is catholic) the other day which bible version she used. Her reply "The Holy Bible" she didn't have the foggiest Idea that there were different bibles.
That doesn't surprise me. Catholics don't go around telling everyone that they have the most accurate bible and all others are corrupt from Satan's teachings. Also, it is up to each individual to hold on to what is true and discard what it useless.
But I would argue that you cannot speak for all JW's and make sweeping statements that most do not know about bible cannon. Otherwise, I could use the same argument about Catholics.
The point that I was making is that JWs come to the door trying to teach about the bible and how other Christians are part of Satan's organization. They tell of a great many things like 'our bible's the most accurate, Jesus died on a torture stake, there is no hell, Jesus is not God, Peter was not the 1st pope, Jesus never told Peter he was the rock to build His church, etc, etc, and when you confront them on these issues that they just told you with authority, they must retreat and say that 'these arguements have been going on for centuries'. That's not what they said at the door. At the door, they lied.....lied for the TRUTH tm , and it also went into their translation. How many times have you quoted that 'I don;lt want to believe in a three headed grotesque god'? You know that the Trinity is not a three headed monster god. jeus
meant respectfully, even if it doesn't sound that way.
dc
still thinking

@TTWSY
Hmmmmm...lets see, was that an enormous statue of Mary I saw people kneeling in front of and praying to....or maybe I was mistaken. Maybe it was a golden calf.
Of course it all makes total sense....you have convinced me.....we don't need to pray directly to Jesus, its not his name we need to call on for salvation. We need to get Mary and the saints to petitiion him for us. Because of course we cant speak directly to Jesus or even God for that matter. When Jesus told us "this is how to pray"....our father etc etc.... he made an error, it was a misprint.....he meant, ask Mary and the saints to pass that information on to him.
So in future I will adrress all my comments to OUTLAW maybe, and then he can pass them on to you. I'm starting to understand how this whole thing works.
OUTLAW....you're it....pass it on
TTWSYF

Still thinking - To answer your anti catholic ramblings. Start a blog about it and I will reply as I have no problem answering my faith and it's history. 2000 years worth and well documented. Of course not without it's faults, but there's not 'lying for the truth' in our guidlines.
Also worth mentioning that my apology for zinging you about your lack of knowledge of your previous Catholic faith was not an apology because I was wrong, but an apology because my delivery was rude. I still have the belief that you had and have no idea about the fullness of your former faith. Someone told you that prayer repitition was vain repitition. Really? How would you know? Cause you can read folks minds and hearts? Gimmi a break.
Hmmmmm...lets see, was that an enormous statue of Mary I saw people kneeling in front of and praying to....or maybe I was mistaken. Maybe it was a golden calf.
No, it was a statue of Mary that you saw people kneeling by and praying. The thing that you apparently will not understand [and I don't blame you, it's the JW judgement thing you haven't let go of yet], is that you did not see people praying to Mary. Mary is a creature. The 'Hail Mary' prayer is actually reciting holy scripture except for the part that asks her to 'pray for us sinners, now and the hour of our death', other than that, it is all scripture. All scripture is prayer to God. It honors Mary when we read scripture about her and her witnessing of Jesus's life, but that is not worship.
Of course it all makes total sense....you have convinced me.....we don't need to pray directly to Jesus, its not his name we need to call on for salvation.
Who said that? You, Still thinking?
Wonderment wrote earlier The NWT was prepared for JWs, not for Christendom.
That's not what JWs say at the door. They say how they're the only true Christians and theirs is the most accurate bible. It's more lying for the TRUTH tm.
Many of these blogs are proving the fact that you need credibility in translations.
So moving on with this blog, over 99% of reputable scholars say that the Watchtower translation of John 1;1 is amatuer translation at best. Let's look at another example, shall we?
Ego eimi = is Greek for I am. It is by far the easiest first two words of the Greek [or any other] language. I am hot, I am hungry, I am thirsty, I am, easy to translate. I am is what God called himself to Moses at the burning bush when he told Moses to take off his shoes for he was on holy land. I am - present tense, not past or future tense, but present tense. Jesus said in John 8;58 'before Abraham came to be, I am' This was Jesus asserting his divinity and the crowd of Jews around Jesus wanted to kill him for blasphemy for saying that. Jesus never corrected them and said 'no, you misunderstood me' and scripture never says that the crowd of Jews misunderstood. That in itself is proof enought that the NWT rendering is wrong. Add that very obvious and quite frankly inexcusable, deceitful mistranslation to the long list of why the Watchtower is 'Translating the NWT in the Shadows'...interesting subject matter Juan, thanks.
Biblical scholar H.H. Rowley ["So many Versions?" Expository Times, 65 {1953-1954}, 103] said that the NWT 'reminds one of nothing so much as a schoolboy's first painful beginnings in translating Latin into English...and instead of showing reverance for the Bible which the translators profess, it is an insult to the word of God'
respectfully,
dc
Wonderment

ttwsyf:
There u go again with your wishful thinking that 99% is against "a god" rendering. It is not true. About 1 in 5 or 6 scholars explain John 1:1 in a way that u would not like. Even when they render it "God" they often explain there is a difference. Take the Net Bible for instance. Wallace, a main contributor of it, would translate it "God," because he is a Pentecostal trinitarian. However, he emphasizes the QUALITATIVE nature of the Word instead of making a case of identification as u are doing. In other words, though he prefers "God" as a rendering (as a trinitarian), he explains it should not be understood the way many folks (you ?) understand it. Robert Young translated it "God," but in his commentary he explains that the literal reading is "more lit. and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word." A Greek Grammar popular with universities all over says on Jn 1:1: "In such a construction, the subject and the predicate are not equivalent." (James Allen Hewett) Thus, it is wrong to insist that God and Christ are equivalent. So brother, check your facts carefully before committing yourself. It could be that u are running about looking for support from staunch trinitarians, instead of from more-open minded, more flexible trinitarians.
Two well known Catholic bible translators in Spain translate it "God," nevertheless, they explain in their commentary that "a God" is allowed and perhaps the preferred literal rendering. And so on... reads those links fully, since u are far from getting it. (New Spanish Bible)
As u are citing Rowley, it should be said that he said those words withing the context of fluid translations. In other words, most literal translations would not measure up either. Have u ever used NT versions such as the one by Kenneth Wuest? If u think that Rowley is right about wooden translations such as NWT, check that one out. Of course, Wuest is a trinitarian, so he might be "safe from your criticism."
Yes, ego eimi means basically "I am." But anyone who insists that it cannot be rendered in certain instances, such as the one in Jn 8:58 where an idiom is used with an adverb of time in the clause, indicating a rendering where the English perfect indicative is not only an acceptable rendering, but a more correct translation considering the idiom used. Check the Greek text and what grammarians explain before making claims that can make u look uninformed. Scholars are human and err. A case in point is that the great William Barclay condemned the WT claiming at one time that "a god" rendering is impossible as a Greek translation. Well, Barclay had to take his comment back when other scholars proved him wrong. He later admitted that "grammatically it is possible."
Oh, yes, since u seem to revere Mantey, let me say that what I wrote above is what Mantey explained in his grammar, with the exception he did not mention Jn 8:58 especifically, but similar scriptures with same construction. Again, it is in one of those links. By the way, I got the Grammar in my shelf. I have looked it up personally. Mantey was a Baptist, so he did not want to include Jn 8:58 with the group. By the way, Mantey was in awe of Charles B. Williams as a Greek scholar, his former Greek teacher. How do u think Williams translated Jn 8:58? Hint: He did not translated it as "I am." I will let u find that one out by yourself, because I get the feeling u would rather hear it from them.
By the way, why do u "hate" the NWT? We all can try to be a bit more impartial and see the good anywhere it happens.
My children are JWs, and I have suffered shunning not only from them, but from a legion of former "friends." My married daughter has never invited me to her house, which I have never seen. That is more than 9 years. It hurts! However, I can look beyond the anger that I sometimes feel toward the WT, and see the good side of it. And I enjoy using the NWT with my other bible versions. Chill out!
Blessings brother!
JuanMiguel

My first chance to go half way around the world to do a special project and we get grounded due to the combination of possible contamination from the disaster in Japan and the U.N./Allies response to the unsettled political climate in Libya! (Insert favorite foul expression here.) It isn’t everyday that you get the opportunity to see a dream fulfilled and get it crushed due to international events no one could have foreseen a few weeks ago.
The world is an unsettled place right now, and if you haven’t had to go out and move about in it internationally, well—you’re lucky. It’s also more frightening for many now than it usually is and, for some, even far more illogical than ever before. One fellow I spoke with who was traveling back home said the people in Libya, on both sides, need to drop everything and see what he saw in Japan as the quake hit and the tsunami swept away everything the shaking left standing and alive. Those involved in the conflict could be gone this quickly, in seconds, by something just as powerful or even more horrible than they could possibly imagine, and then where would their precious beliefs that move them to argue and hate and kill one another be?
What does this have to do with this thread? A lot.
If You Can't Take a Step Back to Look at the World, At Least Stop Telling Us What You See in Your Own Mirror
While it’s great that you folks have taken so lively to discuss matters based on what I wrote, I think it's cool. But for the most part the main point is being lost and the arguments taking its place are far less significant to the one I was trying to get across.
I could be a bad writer or some of you just don’t read well...or both.
Or we could still be covered in Watchtower goo that has got us falling into the Watchtower trap so many of us have seem to forgotten we can still be subject too, even years after leaving the Kingdom Hall.
Oh, you know the one I mean: When you’re losing the argument quickly change the subject to something else. Still have trouble shaking that one off too, huh?
Don’t get me wrong. I love a good lively debate about how to render John 1:1, or whether or not the Scriptures are even trustworthy, or the need for the Roman Catholic Church to wake up and smell the coffee. Don’t ever stop discussing those things…except for when they best serve the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
And that’s what we’ve let happen here, again.
"Soylent Green is....PEOPLE!"
The subject is not how to best render one verse over another. And regardless of the fact that I totally support the right of the voice of atheism to be heard more freely than it is still accepted today, the issue is not the validity of Scripture or God or religion. The translation chosen for this subject just happened to be a Catholic translation, and it was apropos because of the anti-Catholic stance the Watchtower is constantly allowed to get away with (for those of you unfamiliar with the term “anti-Catholicism,” it is the excessive use of hate speech toward Catholics and their lifestyle that we don’t allow used toward Jews {anti-Semitic}, of people on the basis of race {racial}, or gays and lesbians {homophobic} but for some reason allow to run rampant and unchecked with the same amount of prejudice and bigotry we claim to distaste when shown for others).
While this is not a Catholic love fest, it is also not a place to use as a platform for anti-Catholicism. And the same goes for those who are against religion or don’t believe in the Bible, or don’t like Girl Scout cookies or whatever. I’m glad you are now free enough from the Watchtower to stop buying and eating Thin Mints while rejecting belief in God. All power to you, my friend.
But the main point is that the Watchtower is the main culprit being discussed. It’s not Catholicism, the principles used to govern translation, or even theism. While those other things are up for debate, the fact that an internationally spun lie that is still being fed to blind people—“Shut up and eat it! Soylent Green is good food!”—deserves far more attention than just a few lines before we take up advertising our latest brand of whatever we’ve bought into to fill the void left by the Watchtower...once more (yawn).
Again, I’m not saying don’t preach your new thing, just don’t do it when it serves the Watchtower.
Except for a few voices on here, the majority of us agree that the New World Translation is more than a poor substitute for a genuine scholarly work of translation. It’s a fraud.
And whoever applauds the fact that since the 1960s some 195 million copies of that sham have been distributed by the JWs, I say, “Are you hearing yourself? Taking into account the number of JWs in the world, how many of them own more than one copy (not to mention children and other non-JW family members, friends, etc.), and taking into account how many times they need to replace the copy they now have due to it becoming old and tattered, as well as the various versions they may own of the NWT (like on audio tape) that are included in the count by the way, and add to that the number of people the JWs are supposed to have reached over the past 50 years…you honestly believe that 195 million is impressive? That’s all they can do in half a century?”
You see what I mean, folks? The world is filled with those in darkness much deeper than that which surrounded Helen Keller, but few Anne Sullivans come forward to help guide them out.
"Because You Like Having Strings on You, Remember?"
We have our current beliefs and non-beliefs, those of us who have left the Watchtower. Granted, and that’s good.
But all our efforts at doing something real about it are wasted when we just debate these things on a board. True, some people from outside may read this, and yes changing the mind of just one person by what we’ve allowed to be discussed is nothing to be sneezed at…
But it’s not enough.
If it were then the NWT would have died off years ago and this board would no longer be needed. Hooray for that day, no?
Put aside for a moment, just this one moment, all that we now believe that can divide us and instead choose to come together on that which we know is true…the horrible excuse for a translation the NWT is, and let’s think use our ability to argue and debate and tear one another’s convictions apart and concentrate it on that one thing we know we can validly prove—even if the JWs won’t admit it or even look at evidence to the contrary of what the GB teaches them.
Let’s see if we can get together and find new ways of getting our message across. What we’ve been doing over the past few years has helped some, but might there still be other ways we have yet to try?
One more time—and I do this in my posts because for some reason people misread or add things I didn’t put into my comments—hooray for the atheist who can freely speak their mind without fear of assault or being persecuted. I wish there were more places were atheists and theists could, even when disagreeing as they do here, be able to mingle and openly discuss subjects so freely. But even if you, an atheist, think the Bible is just fiction, would you allow works like Romeo and Juliet to be mistranslated? How about an attempt to rob the world of the mythology of the Greeks and Romans before Christ came on the scene? Would the world be richer or poorer if we took all the fables and stories of various religions and their gods and allowed them to be destroyed, either literally or through mistranslation?
It may not be true in your eyes anymore, but it is still one of the greatest collections of works made by the hand of man. There are modern works of fiction on the market that are classics that some would likewise wish to be done away with, but I’m neither for censorship nor for those who wish to water down what the original writers were saying—you get my drift?
When we try to make the argument about our current convictions at the cost of others, we let the Watchtower get by again with another crime. Which battle is more important? There is a dreadful quake and tsunami out there, but is it all these other things we are squabbling about?
Step back and look at the bigger picture, folks. Stop playing into the hands of the puppet masters of the dark. Don’t do the work of judging the world for them. Call attention to the strings and the hands that are still trying to manipulating us.
We can do so much more together than when we let ourselves be divided.
still thinking

TTWSYF Just like the JW's, you home in on what you think the point is and miss the actual point completely. You see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. Even to the point that you seem to keep thinking I need to get back to that faith....typical JW thought process. Have you just swapped one mind controlling religion for another. Wake up, put your objective glasses on. I do not have a lack of knowlege about the Catholic faith. I have enough to know it is a lie. Just as I have enough knowlege to know that JW faith is a lie.
I still have the belief that you had and have no idea about the fullness of your former faith
.
I had, and have had plenty of ideas about it thank you. I was so full of my "former faith" as you like to put it....that it made me want to vomit.
you did not see people praying to Mary
Exodus 20:4 "Do not make for yourselves images of anything in heaven or on earth or in the water under the earth (Good news Bible)
This indeed is true......I saw them praying to a statue whist rubbing little beads between their fingers.....if they wernt praying to it what were they doing? You could argue that it is just an image so they have something to focus on......and I could argue that they are worshipping false idols....we will NEVER agree on this. (maybe they were praying that mary would help them with their bead rubbing disorder)
The only reason you cannot see ANY truth at all in the NWT is that you are SO BIASED. I don't deny that catholic bibles and NWT in fact all bibles are worth looking at to compare scriptures and come to my own conclusions. You however have decided what you want the scriptures to say and anything else that does not fit into your preconceived reasoning must be wrong.
I think that talking about the Catholic religion is valid in this thread because it highlights why you are so against the NWT. It isn't a catholic bible.
Someone told you that prayer repitition was vain repitition. Really?
Saying the same thing over and over again. Just like I was told to after going to confession. 10 Hail marys 5 Our Fathers.......(depending on how severe the sinning) .........Yes, I think it was the bible actually.....pick one, any one.
still thinking

JuanMiguel
“anti-Catholicism,” it is the excessive use of hate speech toward Catholics and their lifestyle that we don’t allow used toward Jews {anti-Semitic}, of people on the basis of race {racial}, or gays and lesbians {homophobic} but for some reason allow to run rampant and unchecked with the same amount of prejudice and bigotry we claim to distaste when shown for others).
Anti JWism - the excessive use of hate speech toward JW's and their lifestyle that we don’t allow used toward Catholics, Atheists, Jews {anti-Semitic}, of people on the basis of race {racial}, or gays and lesbians {homophobic} but for some reason allow to run rampant and unchecked with the same amount of prejudice and bigotry we claim to distaste when shown for others
JuanMiguel

Still Thinking,
The discussion is not about what makes a good Catholic Bible translation. I could have used the NIV's just-released revision as the example, as I've mentioned before. The fact that AP, Reuters, CNN, ABC, and other news media outlets were highlighting the NABRE caught my eye, and when I noticed the difference between what the Catholics get for scholarship in their latest copy of the Scriptures and what the Governing Body believes the whole world needs made for an interesting contrast.
And a little comment here and there about what you believe about Catholics is fine. I've included a few myself. But I've limited criticisms because we could spend all day doing that, and it would eventually lead us away from the subject.
We who have been JWs may still have problems with an overactive sense of compartmentalization. While we all need to take a good look at things in life and decide for ourselves what we believe is beneficial and what isn't, many who find themselves in a religion like Jehovah's Witnesses, and similar Fundamentalist control groups, might become members of these type of groups because the religion enables a disordered need to compartmentalize in overly extreme measures.
Of course if we have such a need, it isn't likely we can see it for ourselves--let alone admit that we have a "need" to be in the right and everyone else who doesn't agree with us to be labled as wrong.
But often we might leave the Watchtower behind and find we haven't changed much. We still believe we see things accurately (though we once claimed this as a JW), and now we see a need of not only disproving the JWs as wrong but everyone else who doesn't share our updated stand or convictions (our swan song still hasn't changed). Some of the comments of some JWs here and on other boards sound just like that. They've only switched out "Jehovah's Witness" for the new set of convictions they've adopted.
While this is not to say or even suggest that most here don't have a better or even corrected understanding now than what we had as one of Jehovah's Witnesses; but if we still speak as adamantly about our new convictions just as we did about our views when we were one of Jehovah's Witnesses (we're still right and all others who don't have this same view are just as wrong as before), then it may not hurt to ask a professional's opinion on what they know about depersonalization and the symptoms of compartmentalization disorder, and how we can learn more on identifying it in ourselves.
Claiming that this thread is a support for Catholicism or that someone who has commented here is definitely doing that (and in reality, no one can say those things for sure since we are much more than avatars and screen names here; we're all just people like you are and not capable of having an exhaustive claim on another's views--unless we claim we're some kind of medium, or something ), that's really not a realistic conclusion to come to based on a few comments. I myself can write lengthy diatribes to support the freedom of speech of just about any group without subscribing to their views personally. For you to state that another person on this thread can't do the same is neither logical or even being honest with yourself.
You have every right to criticize the Catholic faith about anything you want. And you also have the right to say you know what others are thinking or feeling deep inside just because of what you see from their comments. But having the right doesn't mean you're correct. And exercising a right that doesn't fit in with the facts may just warrant a more cautious look at oneself.
Regardless of what I write here and what does or does not apply to you, this thread is not about "yea for the Catholic translation." It's about "hey Watchtower, if these Christendom people are so bad at translating the Bible, why did they do it with such transparency and you demonize those who want just the same for themselves? Don't those you serve deserve even better than what the so-called Satan's people get?"
JuanMiguel

Still Thinking,
Making up terms like "anti-JW"ism and ranting about anything else doesn't change the fact that the New World Translation isn't even a bit as good as the worst of Christendom's Bible translations (like Catholicism is supposed to be), nor the fact that the "god" of the Watchtower does his translating in the shadows.
Curtains

I think the NWT needs retranslating as some of the distortions are downright embarrassing. The appendix which tries to explain why the NWT uses the name Jehovah in the NT at certain places is also embarrassing. I think it may be a good idea to write in requesting that these distortions be examined asap.

Translating the NWT in the Shadows

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