Translating the NWT in the Shadows

by JuanMiguel 123 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JuanMiguel
    JuanMiguel

    Wonderment,

    If I may insert the following. I understand where you are coming from and this might help explain what is causing the difference in opinion here.

    The Trinity Is Made of Three Entities...Yep, You Got It Right

    First of all Trinitarians agree with you 100% that Jesus is NOT the same entity as the God he was "with" in John 1:1. Jesus is considered by Trinitarians to be an entity entirely separate and whole and different from God the Father, who is considered to be an entirely different Person, as they put it. These two separate Persons--completely individual and separate from the other--are also not the same entity as the Holy Spirit.

    As the "one flesh" of humanity mentioned in Genesis consist of two entirely separate and individual entities, namely one husband and one wife, so the one God transcends this further by being made up of three entirely separate Persons, one Father, one Son, and one Holy Spirit…as they teach and believe. I am not here advocating this belief, mind you.

    The problem is that you are taking this point as if it goes contrary to Trinitarian thinking or teaching, when in reality it does not. You are in total agreement with Trinitarians on this point. So nothing mentioned in Scripture that proves Jesus is not the Father is totally in agreement with Trinitarian doctrine. Trinitarians believe that Jesus is neither the Father, nor the Holy Spirit. Jehovah's Witnesses, who don't believe in the doctrine, often make the mistake that Trinitarians believe all three are the same Person, but such a view is incorrect as that would be considered heresy to believers in the Trinity.

    With Your Lover, Not With Your Creation (That Is If You Were God...or the Flying Spaghetti Monster...or Elvis, even)

    Also, in reality the word translated "with" doesn't mean exactly what we mean in English. It means "toward," and in fact is the same word used to describe a facet of "eros" that in itself leans toward "agape." It means to desire to be with as demonstrated by reaching out, to grasp in order to be practically one in substance.

    This is a peculiar word since according to koine Greek rules about deities and spirituality, which the New Testament writers observed and used to their advantage many times, gods don't perform such an action among themselves.

    It also goes contrary to the author's use of the expression "logos" or "Word" for Jesus. God's Word is that which "goes forth from" God. This is a Word that "moves toward" God, as if passionately in love or desperate to cling and merge with God. Regardless if we are Trinitarian or not, it is clear that the author is not using these terms literally. They are in fact the opposite of what one would expect to be used in reference to any deity, the Hebrew God especially.

    The term appears again in Revelation to describe God being "with" humankind after the re-creation of the heavens and earth. While it would be perfectly fine to use this in reference to humans and their desire to be "with" God, it is odd to find the expression being used about a deity again.

    Being that God does not live in a literal place like we do, God does not take up space—according to Trinitarian belief at least. Because of this one cannot literally be "with" God--and I know this is hard to understand—since God doesn't literally have a "side" to which we can be "alongside" him through. And the English word "with" gives us the idea of standing still in one spot next to God, but the word in Greek implies an incomplete action that is still occurring. Not the same thing at all.

    So it's not literal. Nobody is literally with anybody else in these verses.

    Sons are the Spitting Image of Their Fathers...But What's This About Spit?

    Does the use of the word "Son" for Jesus mean that Christ is God's offspring? Nope. It does in English, but that is the secondary meaning in this instance of the word in Semitic usage.

    In fact, we do have a saying borrowed from the Hebrews' use of the word "son": "He's the spitting image of his father."

    What does "spitting image" mean? It comes from combing the words "spit and image." It means that a subject consists of both the stuff that its father is made of (the spit) and as a consequence acts and/or looks like their father (the image).

    This explains Jesus reference to Judas as "the son of destruction" at John 17:12. Destruction is not a person who begot Judas. But Judas was acting as if he was made of the very same stuff as "destruction" was, that he was destruction itself!

    You are likely familiar with the blind beggars who called out for Jesus to heal them and were hushed by the crowd. Why? Because they were blind beggars or poor? They were likely among the poor who were known to make up those crowds which hounded Jesus, so a class distinction was obviously not the issue.

    No, the blind man (or men, according to one account), referred to Jesus as "Son of David." In other words, some of the first people to publically call Jesus of Nazareth "the Messiah" were these blind ones who wanted their sight. On this account the people hushed them.--Luke 18:39.

    But they don't use the term "Messiah" at all, you say. Yes they do, they call Jesus "Son of David." Jesus was not the son of David, he was the son of Joseph. He was a great, great, great......grandson of David, but not a son. But like the term "son of destruction," the blind were indeed calling to mind the promise to David that his own seed would be the promised Messiah, and they were applying this to Jesus by calling him "Son of David" publically. That is why at Matthew 9:29 Jesus tells them to have their sight with the words: " Let it be done for you according to your faith." What faith? They had just publically put their standing in the synagogue on the line and named Jesus of Nazareth as the promised Messiah.

    This is also why Jesus mocked the religious leaders as hypocrites because they kept using the phrase that they were "sons of those who murder the prophets." As stated in the NWT even: " Therefore YOU are bearing witness against yourselves that YOU are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Well, then, fill up the measure of YOUR forefathers" meaning "live up to what you are condemning yourselves as."--Matthew 23:32, italics added.

    It is this usage of the Semitic "son" that gave Christians their first clue that Jesus was God Incarnate. Jesus never claimed to be a creation of God, much as an angel or man would or could. Jesus, on the contrary, acted and taught as the authority, not as one under authority. Because Jesus meant he was the equivalent of the perfect Adam when he called himself "Son of Man" (literally "son of Adam"), it was accepted that Jesus was also calling himself God in referring to himself as the "Son of God."

    Now, this does not mean that I believe in the Trinity and claim that you should too. Nope, does nothing of the sort.

    But I am showing you that the points you mention argue in favor of the Trinity, not against it.

    Not 1 +1 +1 =1, But That 3 = 1 + 1 + 1

    Trinitarians argue that God is made up of three distinct entities, just as 'one human flesh' is made up of the two distinct entities of wife and husband. The husband is not the wife, and the wife is not the husband, but the two are "one flesh" regardless.--Genesis 2:24.

    Add to this that Jesus called himself the "Son of God," (and that English was not invented yet...English has only one meaning of "son," a male offspring of its parents, and no other meaning outside this), and since this is how his Christian audience came to understand it back then, they had no problem with later accepting the Trinity when it came down the line a couple hundred years later.

    Yep, Jesus prayed to God, called God greater, etc., etc., but all this plays into Trinitarian thought, not against it like the Witnesses teach. The JWs teach the Trinity is three Gods in one, but Trinitarians believe in God in three Persons, a totally different concept. In their minds Christ is not equal to God, he is the Son of God, the spit and image, one and the same.

    And that which is the same does not need to make itself equal to itself.

    Finally, regardless if you believe in the Trinity or not or even accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it doesn't speak well of the NWT since it and the religion that developed it, never quite grasp the teaching they work so hard to preach against. You can't preach the Trinity wrong until you know what the Trinity is in the first place.

    And all this is besides the true argument here, namely about translating in the "shadows," not regarding the validity of what may or may not be on the pages regarding Christ’s identity. Apparently the NWT itself isn't the only thing "in the dark" here. It appears the JWs and their religious leaders are in the dark about a great many things.

  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    Hi Curtains, Juan and everyone else,

    I don't have time to address every point that you are making at this seating, gotta go off to work.

    1st off- the NWT is a poor translation period. If it were anywhere near accurate, then some other reputable organization would use it. No one else uses it because it is corrupt.

    John 1;1 is one of probably 100 errors intentionally put in to change the script to fit Watchtower positions. That is a fact. Check your interlinair and see instead of promoting points of view from unreliable sources [nutjobs and haters].

    1% is accurate. Check the various bible translations and see. I did check your social documents network. Not too reliable.

    Sure, most folks thought the world was flat, they were wrong. There are lots of theories about creation and quantum physics along with theology that I believe the majority of folks would be wrong. Translating the scriptures in this day and age is not splitting atoms son. As more and more evidence is found, it puts the NWT position in the highly unlikely category. 1% [or less] is pretty accurate.

    I went through your links info and addressed it. Why don't you do the same for me? check out a very reputable source http://onlineparallelbible.com/ and check the interlinair for yourself.

    You say that Mantey was a fraud. Why? Because he chastised the WTS for doing something that they constantly do, and that is to take quotes out of context. Infuriating to say the least. Then folks like you buy it hook, line and sinker. Look to good info, not WTS propaganda. Many anti trinitarian scholars translate John 1;1 as 'the word was God' How many trinitarian scholars translate it as 'the word was a god'? Probably none.

    Do the math, you're obviously not an idiot.

    respectfully,

    dc

  • wobble
    wobble

    Thanks ,once again JuanMiguel,

    You have made many matters so clear that I feel I could explain them to others, you are a "good teacher", lower case, only Jesus gets upper case on that title !

    Slightly off topic, but you seem to be saying you have a problem with the Trinity doctrine as it is explained by the churches, I wonder, what is your problem, what do you see as error in their explanation ?

    This may need a thread of its own, or if you prefer you could P.M me, or if you like I will give you my E-mail addy.

    I am sure though, I cannot be the only one interested to hear your views on this.

    Thanks.

  • Curtains
    Curtains

    from an atheistic standpoint the truly exciting thing about John1:1, and the verses that follow, suggest the significance of reason. Logos can mean reason and probably did to a much greater extent during the period ascribed to the birth of Jesus than in the past. So to me the light shining in a dark place suggests the importance of using reason to establish reality.

    wonderment - the scribd site gave my computer a malware virus - so I'm not going to use that site.

    ttwysf - an interlienear is available at blue letter bible, the site I went to check what the koine greek words mean. I stand by what I said about John1:1-2 that Jehovahs witnesses are not distorting those verses.

    Also God in three entities is an excellent refutation of three persons in one. Thanks for that Juan - I'll have to try and remember this

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    The NWT is a good translationin regards to the OT, most of the time.

    It is NOT a good translation in regards to the NT because it is heavly edited infavour of the JW's doctrines and while ALL translations suffer from that, their's is notorious for ADDING words and terms, CHANGING was was originally written AND altering the meanings of verse via addtions of words that were never there and that PURPOSELY change the meaning.

    All those are signs of a heavily biais and thus suspect, translation.

  • JuanMiguel
    JuanMiguel

    With my moment of extended "leave" from my project over, I return to a "blackout" of all Internet boards, chats, tweets, etc. It's part of the creative process, supposedly. Don't ask me. I'm not the director. Not even close.

    As for more on the NABRE, I won't be able to offer much personally. I got my copy, but alas I am not going to be able to do a review. Since he was a JW once too, I've asked Lon Perillo to join and post this information himself for all to read.

    He won't join. I've asked him three times already too.

    "You guys are crazy," he said after reading a bit of the boards here for himself. He was laughing and shaking his head while he said it, but I'm not sure what this meant. Each time I brought it up afterwards he answered by saying: "You're crazy. You all guys are crazy." Again with a laugh, with a shake of the head, and not much else.

    Maybe it's a Catholic thing. Oh well.

    The point is not so much the NABRE as that responsible scholarship as demonstrated by that translation committee and others like it show a real duty to the public they serve. The Bible is the book of the people, not just a few select linguists of academia. All should be included in the process if not at least allowed to "peer through the window" so to speak while Bible translation is being done.

    When you're responsible for others you don't mind the transparency. And maybe its a lesson being learned by Catholic clergy (and I hope it is) that all parts of such an organization needs to be just as transparent and held accountable. Still far from perfect, but for a religion that claims to be essentially what Jehovah's Witnesses claim they have the exclusive rights on, it makes the Watchtower look like a very poor cousin indeed if not a total failure-wannabee.

    Like my devotion to Star Trek, the material itself may not be any more real in the eyes of some, but you can't tamper with a classic and get away with it. There's a right way to do Star Trek and a way that will get you killed by a mob of Trekkers dressed as their favorite character as they find you hanging around one of our....uhmm, er, their conventions. And hiding in the shadows while writing a poor adaptation of Trek won't save you either. We'll....I mean, they will hunt you down and feed you to tribbles.

    My atheist theology professor who recently retired said something about Bible translation and the NWT that impressed me. He stated: "I may not get suckered into accepting the terms of Pascal's Wager as a reason for believing in your God. But I'm also smart enough to avoid mistranslating the Bible. If I did that, that will surely be the day that it gets proved that I was wrong about something, and it will turn out that God does indeed exist. Can you imagine my horror then? Holy s#@t! I didn't just claim God wasn't, I screwed around with his written word! Those Jehovah's Witnesses who created that translation sure better have the cohones they obviously thought they had when they made their version. If there wasn't a God who takes vegenece on those who twist his word before, you can bet their asses that on the pure basis of what they've done, there surely is one now!"

  • JuanMiguel
    JuanMiguel

    And thanks, Wobble. But no, I am not saying I have a problem with or agree with the Trinity doctrine as taught by Trinitarians. I'm not opening that can of worms, not here at least.

  • Curtains
    Curtains

    thanks for clarifying those points

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    If the JW's are in the dark they certainly are not alone. They are in good company with the Catholics. I was brought up Catholic, went to Catholic schools and participated in all their ridiculous rituals. They are experts at keeping their followers in the dark but they do it quite differently. JW's provide copious amounts of information to support their beliefs (biased? Definately, but arent all religions). Catholics simply teach you must believe and thats that. No need to explain or answer any questions. Just listen, do as you're taught, worship our Father the Pope who's image dominates the hallways and classrooms, even more dominant than Jesus in fact. I think Jesus may even come close third after Mary. Never mind if you don't know what the hell they are talking about. Just accept that they know what they are talking about and you don't. Both are biased in their own way. Both as guilty as each other. Both seeking to control.

    I have studied with witnesses for a number of years and must say for me the appeal was the way they liked to answer questions and research things. After the Catholic dogmatic arrogance this was truly refreshing. Unfortunately this turned out to be just another way of misleading people. But refreshing none the less.

    So back to the subject at hand, would I ever have faith in a catholic bible....absolutely not!...would I ever have total faith in any translation of The bible....absolutely not....the only way to find the truth i believe, is to compare, see what makes sense and make your own mind up. Is it good that the NW translation does not make public who their translators were....NO. But the fact that ALL bibles are biased to some extent makes the argument null and void to me because, does knowing the identity of the translators make any bible more correct than another?....NO

    I know that I have gone quite a bit off track with this one but these are the thoughts I was having while I read your posts.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    @wonderment

    By the way, I have read BeDuhns book Truth in Translation. And I agree with you that he makes some very valid points.

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