Translating the NWT in the Shadows

by JuanMiguel 123 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    JuanMiguel

    “anti-Catholicism,” who made up this word? I'm thinking someone must have. People make up words. Thats how they come into being.

    when I noticed the difference between what the Catholics get for scholarship in their latest copy of the Scriptures and what the Governing Body believes the whole world needs made for an interesting contrast.

    Yes it would if it didn't come down to their heirachy having the final say. Bias will still prevail.

    And I take my hat off to you for being able to write like a politician. Saying a lot, whilst not saying a lot. While patronizing, while not. While talking to me, while not. Well done....but maybe not.

    Personally I find that style of writing a bit tedious. You are in danger of PCing yourself to death. (sorry did I just make up another word)

    ranting about anything else doesn't change the fact that the New World Translation isn't even a bit as good as the worst of Christendom's Bible translations

    Since when did your opinion become fact?

    nor the fact that the "god" of the Watchtower does his translating in the shadows.

    More facts about the "God" of the watchtower.......hmmmmm ....translating in the shadows.....AT LAST!!!... we agree!!!! This surely did not do them any favours.

    (we're still right and all others who don't have this same view are just as wrong as before), then it may not hurt to ask a professional's opinion on what they know about depersonalization and the symptoms of compartmentalization disorder, and how we can learn more on identifying it in ourselves.

    Physician heal thy self

  • JuanMiguel
    JuanMiguel

    Still Thinking,

    I didn't make up the word: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism

    I appreciate that you have such ardor for your views, but the fact that I don't agree with you or your approach doesn't mean I feel your are deserving of personal attack. Nothing I was writing is meant to be against you personally.

    I hope that in the future we can at least comment without making comments like "physician heal thyself" as if there was something about me that I need to take care of. The problem I highlighted is one I often do when those who claim to be ex-JWs seem adamantly unbending to at least yield to reasonable discussion without personal attack. It is not meant to be a direct diagnosis of you. But it is something we often don't hear about, especially since people like this never leave the Witnesses due to the fact that that organization preys on people.

    I am, however, angered at the Watchtower for not allowing many the freedom to become better educated to know that anti-Catholicism is a real problem, let alone a real word. You will note from the above article and its references that it is not an invention of mine, and how it differs from being critical of the Catholic Church.

    Many of us here can be critical, even harshly, of another group or religion or movement. But sometimes certain mistakes and actions made by these groups need voices to call out for change, even to demand it. This call to justice differs from a motivation to criticize out of negative emotions or mistakenly made due to a lack of education in matters.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Well actually I am well aware that you didn't make this word up???????

    I never sad YOU did. I said "someone must have". New words are added to our vocabulary every day. So I just added another one.

    So thank you so much for trying to "educate" me on this matter. Are you for real?

  • JuanMiguel
    JuanMiguel

    No. I am not real. I do not exist. And I challenge you to prove otherwise.

    So there. I win! Nyah!

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    Juan Miguel said:

    Making up terms like "anti-JW"ism and ranting about anything else doesn't change the fact that the New World Translation isn't even a bit as good as the worst of Christendom's Bible translations (like Catholicism is supposed to be), nor the fact that the "god" of the Watchtower does his translating in the shadows.

    The thought that "the NWT is not even a bit as good as the worst of Christendom's Bible translations" seems to be a common feeling in this site.

    I disagree! The NWT has faults just as every other version out there. U may choose to ignore those faults, but they are there. What's more, many of the English versions are a "rehash" of previous versions following the line of KJV who copied William Tyndale for the most part. Now, there are fresh translations done from the original, such as NIV, NWT and Byington's. There are others, but they constitute a minority. The new English Standard Version is a rehash of previous versions. So when we have a chance to get a "fresh" translation, we should be grateful, not condemning. Yes, the NWT shows its theological colors. So does every other translation out there.

    I agree with scholar Jason BeDuhn when he says that 'the NWT is in some ways better than the standard translations.' I do question the motives of detractors when they show hatred for a particular version. To be fair, we would also have to indicate other version's faults, or at least acknoledge them. What most people seem to be doing here is, they carry the WT hatred (Remember that I am a WT victim too) and spread it all over the NWT without justification. Another thing that is being carried out by some here in this forum, is that they are placing far too much weight on what some reputable scholars say of the NWT. Those are just "opinions." A Master or PhD does not prove they have the right exegesis. What Colwell said in the past, is his opinion. What Walter Martin, or J. Mantey said in their condemnation of the NWT only proves they are evangelically defensive. Other (trinitarian at that) (scholars have pointed out their linguistic technical errors on those scriptures where theology is involved. Let's be careful!

    I wonder how many of the NWT detractors have done what Rolf Furuli from Oslo Univ. has done. That is, he took the NWT verse by verse and compared it with the Hebrew text, and he walked away with a good impression. Furuli is a JW, and a scholar. Others, not JWs, such as BeDuhn and F.F. Bruce, Metzger, Goodspeed they criticized certain elements of the NWT, but admitted being impressed with their scholarship. If a scholar writes that the NWT NT displays "an unusual competence in the Greek" (Andover Newton Quarterly), why not try at least, to see the good in the translation's effort? Why see the NIV as a good effort, but see the NWT as a perversion, when both teams reflect their own understanding of Scripture?

    The truth is that the NWT is not as "holy" as some JWs would have u believe, at the same time the NWT is not nearly as bad as portrayed here. It is easy to get caught up in religious bias. We are all guilty of that to some extent, including myself. Thus, this advice is sound: 'But examine everything carefully, hold fast to that which is good.' (The NASB) Hey, did u notice that this rendering sounds "wooden," just as the NWT does in some places?

    Blessings!

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    @Wonderment

    You truly are a breath of fresh air in this world. I really enjoy reading your thoughts.

    @JuanMiguel

    Yes you do my love, have a lovely day Mwaahhhh

    I am, however, angered at the Watchtower for not allowing many the freedom to become better educated to know that anti-Catholicism is a real problem, let alone a real word. You will note from the above article and its references that it is not an invention of mine, and how it differs from being critical of the Catholic Church

    Just to give you some accurate information that is fact. I was not educated as a JW, I was educated as a catholic.

    But I have to agree with you on one thing, and that is discouraging education for young JW's or any JW's for that matter is not beneficial for them as individuals or for the organisation as a whole. I was reading another thread on this site about education and different religions. And was shocked at the results.

    Clearly the best way to control people is to keep them uneducated. Dumb down the massess so they are unable to question and reason.

    Very sad

  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    One thing is for sure as this tread progresses. We are all victims of the Watchtower. It has touched all of us most profoundly. For my part, my brother converted to JWs and spewed his anti-catholic lies [because that's what the watchtower promotes, lies against other religions]. I read [should you believe in the trinity, the greatest man and numerouse watchtower and awake mags] and heard his lies and it led me away from my Catholic faith....just like some of you. I thought that he was right, he certainly sounded confident and educated on the subject matter. I started questioning nuns on the street about praying to Mary and the saints and the traditions, incense, relics in alters, the priesthood, everything. It was some 10 years later that another sibling went to a place called Medjugorje [in the former Yugoslavia] and after hearing of her trip and listeneing to her story , I agreed [mentally] to a small experiment [kinda a Pascale;s wager {forgive the mispelling}]. I agreed that I would read the scriptures daily and did so for several months. My JW brother being interested in my new found scriptural interest started asking if I figured out that Jesus was Michael yet. I was like "What?!, how do you get that? I told him that reading scriptures actually confirmed much of the Catholic faith for me and I started [only then] to research his claims that I intially believed. Everything was a lie...everything!

    What wasn't a lie? I don't know. Everytime I try to confirm one of his beliefs, scripture contridicted it. Jesus came back already, JWs are God's mouth piece, millions living now will never die, etc, etc. Every one of his assertions has been used against the Watchtower. It's so funny that it's quite sad.

    Still thinking, you have my sympathys. It's terrible that your family is still stuck in that cult. If you're out, it's because you figured out that they lied to you as well as your family. I am sorry that they shun you. It's a nasty business to be a member of a cult. You have my prayers.

    You did write

    Just to give you some accurate information that is fact. I was not educated as a JW, I was educated as a catholic.

    You were not educated as a Catholic. You went to Catholic schools perhaps, yes, but your questions about the Catholic faith, Mary and the saints prove that you had no Catholic education. You weren't educated as a JW, but you did learn the techniques to deal with the contradictions in your faith. I am well aware that you had an epiphany at some point that made you say 'enough', and that's good, but you're still holding on to some of the lies. I truly wish you the best.

    Before I give another example of the extremely poor scholarship of the NWT, I have a question for anyone who thinks that Jesus did not assert his divinity in John 8;58 when Jesus states 'Before Abraham came to be, Iam'.

    If Jesus said 'I have been' then why was his life in danger in the very next sentence?

    respectfully,

    dc

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    Thanks Juan Miguel for your kind comments. Thanks everyone else for theirs too, including TTSWYF. It is good to see how people view things, and give us a chance to learn from others.

    This thread about the NWT translation work being done in the shadows is probably due to a couple of reasons. Though it is evident that at least one, perhaps two members of the NWT Committee had enough knowledge to tackle translation work (perhaps Franz and Gangas), none of those alleged members had a Master's, much less a Doctorate degree. Yes, it would be embarrassing to publicly acknowledge they had no college credentials. I have no doubt that F. Franz was capable as he said, of 'applying himself furiously to the task of having a command in Greek.' There are far too many witnesses confirming that he was good with languages. I myself heard him speak in three languages, two of which I could follow along with his speech. The second language being Spanish, and he definitely had command of that one. Yet, he was self-taught on that one. If he mastered the Spanish and Portuguese the way he did on his own, no doubt he excelled on his 'applying himself furiously to have a command in Greek.' I heard him personally twice speak in a few languages, without reading a manuscript, and citing more than a full chapter verse by verse in those foreign languages.

    Raymond Franz also later admitted that Fred Franz was "unusually disciplined" in the study of bible languages. Whether it was all Fred Franz's language command, or if he benefited from Gangas being a native Greek speaker, we will not know. Before someone snaps back telling me that Gangas knew modern Greek... yes, it was, however, it would not be insurmountable for Gangas to apply himself in Koiné Greek as a contributor. He worked as a translator in Bethel as a translator of English to Greek, Greek to English, and he also served as a Spanish translator when necessary. Gangas was no dummy. Different sources confirm that it is far easier for a native modern Greek speaker to pick up whatever differences there are with Koine, than it would be for a non-Greek speaker to learn koine. Gangas spoke Greek, something other Greek scholars cannot do. Whatever the explanation, the fact is someone in Bethel had a command of Greek good enough to get Andover Newton Quarterly to admit the NWT exhibited "unusual competence in Greek." Another interesting tidbit is, that some tried to make E.G. Goodspeed. a highly respected Greek scholar from Chicago Univ. condemn the NWT, and all they could get from him was a criticism of some Hebrew renderings. On the Greek he held fast to what he had stated in a letter to the WT, i.e. 'that the NWT displayed depth of knowledge... sound serious learning of which he could testify,' and that he was pleased with the NWT NT.

    Also, it should be stated, that the WT started anonymity way before the 1940's, which was when (specif. 1942) when they made it sort of a general rule not to publish the names of the authors of their publications. That is at least 8 years before the NWT was published. Furthermore, scores of bible versions throughout bible history have published many editions anonymously. The 20th Century NT being one of them.

    Someone here asked whether the Jews' reaction to Jesus saying "ego eimi" (Jn 8:58) was proof enough that he must have been claiming divinity. The Jerusalem Bible says that Jesus was claiming "a divine mode of existence," (Spanish Jerusalem Bible footnote) which would indicate that Jesus was not claiming divine equality with God by saying ego eimi. The English JB has a footnote which says: "The claim of Jesus to live on the divine plane (v.58) is, for the Jews, blasphemy, for which the penalty is stoning. Lv 24:16." So it seems these scholars understand Jesus claiming "a divine mode of existence," but stopping short of identifying himself as the "I am" of Ex 3:14, where translators erroneously go by the reading of the LXX rather than the Hebrew, for theological reasons.

    Grammarian Kenneth L. Mckay tells us that "the claim to have been in existence for so long is in itself a staggering one, quite enough to provoke the crowd's violent reaction." (Expository Times 107 p. 302)

    And let us not forget John 10:33-36, where Jews wanted to stone Jesus for just claiming to be, not that he was the God (no Greek article), but God' Son. Hence, Daniel Mace New Testament and James L. Tomanek NT render 10:33 as "a God."

    Jesus finished his argument by saying that he was only claiming to be God's Son. (10:36) In harmony with Jesus' own claim, it is more reasonable to take ego eimi, not as a claim of full divinity with God, but as stating: "I have been in existence since before Abraham was born," (Grammarian K. McKay's translation) or, "I was alive before Abraham was born!" Simple English Bible.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    I know where I have been going wrong....I have been following religions with the wrong hats!!!!!

    first there was this....

    then there was this.........

    nice, but just doesn't cut the mustard.

    Maybe I could try this one.....

    Maybe not.....I get the feelilng they might be hiding something......

    Hang on, what maybe I've changed my mind about that first one.......

    Na, not really into that country and western look

    There is something about this one that just scares me.......remind anyone of anything?

    Now this is a good book.......maybe....just maybe

    their followers look good too...

    wonder which edition they are studying today????

  • Murray Smith
    Murray Smith

    Great post JM . . . and what followed has been revealing . . . none more so than JV2's post on page 1 . . . heresay maybe . . . but sounding like a very likely "what went on in the shadows" account

    Luvonyall

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