Thank you, Juan Miguel, for a fascinating read.
Translating the NWT in the Shadows
by JuanMiguel 123 Replies latest watchtower bible
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darth frosty
This has been posted before but I just was thinking about eph 4:8 Where the NWT renders it gifts [in] men while most other bible render it gift's to men. I just looked this scripture up in the kindom interlinear and sure enough, it renders the greek as 'gifts to the men'.
You have got to love the balls that this cult has. I mean its not like the words 'to' and 'in' are synonymous, how can they jutify such a change that radically alters the meaning of scripture and thus open the way for false interpretation. -
Juan Viejo2
Let's face it. If the writers/translators of the NWT did what my friend stated (got a bunch of recent English and American translations and then rewrite the words of the already translated verses), they were likely to have a fairly reliable translation for 90% of the text they rewrote.
The issue is on those verses of the NWT that seem to be significantly different from the vast majority. These were the scriptures like John 1:1 where the Watchtower "translators" ignored the vast amount of evidence available and changed the wording to match Watchtower teachings.
Originally, the NWT used brackets around words that were inserted to clarify meanings or were subject to dispute but seemed to fit within the context. The latest versions of the NWT have removed those brackets - in effect hiding the facts from NWT readers that those words might not be original or were actually added by the WT later.
JuanMiguel, you've provided a well researched group of essays in this thread. I think what is most important for JWs and former JWs to understand is that the translators of the NWT did not follow all of the normal protocols used by professional Bible scholars and translators. The NWT is a translation by committee made up of non-scholars and non-experts in ancient languages - and that includes Fred Franz.
The NWT can most closely be compared to this scenario: Several of us from this forum - ATJeff, MadSweeney, Outlaw, Darth Frosty, and me (Juan Viejo) - all get together in a hotel room for six months to compare Bible translations and then come up with our own. None of us know Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, ancient Egyptian, Hittite, or Phoenician. So each of us grabs a recent translation, plus a Douay and a King James Bible and then we vote on the best way to write each verse.
Would that add to the inaccuracy of our version? Probably not, if the majority of the translations we were using were relatively accurate. Would the basic themes and teachings of the Bible remain consistent? Well yes, except for maybe a very few where we couldn't agree and had to compromise on some awkward wording of a verse.
If we published that version of the Bible and told our potential readers, "Hey, this is a version that a bunch of barely literate guys came up with and we think it sounds pretty good. Read it and then decide for yourself," then we'd be honest about what we were selling.
But if we published our version and then told everyone that we were educated scholars who were expert and proficient in translating ancient dead languages - and we had additional help because we were inspired and guided by God's Holy Spirit - then we would be frauds and liars and would be cheating our readers.
Let me ask just one more question: When the NWT translators were doing their work, where did they procure their old manuscripts? What ancient depositories or museums did they go to access and study those ancient manuscripts. Who among them went to the Vatican to access the oldest manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate and Septuagint manuscripts? If anyone can answer that, please do.
The fact is that the NWT translators did all their "translating" behind closed doors at Brooklyn Bethel without benefit of any of the old original manuscripts. And even if they had sent someone to the Vatican or the British Museum or any other repository of ancient manuscripts, there was not one among them that could have read or translated any of those priceless documents.
The NWT is a sham...
JV
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JuanMiguel
Forgive all the errors in grammar in that last post. It was very late, and I had stared at a computer screen all day long...zzzzz...I want my binky, zzzz...Wha? Where? Oh, hi!
Hola, JuanViejo. Soy Juan Joven! LOL
Great info, from Juan to another (we could have a show together called "Juan on Juan with Juan Viejo and Juan Miguel."
Darth Frosty--cool! Didn't know that point. The "farce" is no match for the Force.
Because I really have no time left for the next couple of weeks or so to answer FactFinder, I am posting the following from a still yet-to-be completed report by an ex-JW friend who is now Catholic and helps in that area where he lives. I will get the final form from him for future use if anyone needs it for their Catholic friends or others.
FactFinder, again this is not meant to advance support in the NABRE or its accuracy as superior to all like the NWT does of itself. It is only from a Catholic perpective to show that the NABRE offers Catholics a more dependable choice than the NWT claims to offer. I had only time to take three of the most outstanding examples, in my opinion, offered in the report.
A special thanks to my Catholic friend, Lon Perillo, who basically developed this list himself for his own Catholic ministry that serves the specific need of Catholics who have left or are considering leaving the Catholic faith for the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Lon has had close association with the USCCB and the Catholic Biblical Association for over 5 years now. See you folks in and around the start of April.
The NABRE: Far More Accurate and Much Easily Understood than the NWT
Superior Grasp of Grammar
John 1:19, 24:
NWT:
Now this is the witness of John when the Jews sent forth priests and Levites from Jerusalem to him to ask him: “Who are you?” ... Now those sent forth were from the Pharisees.
NABRE:
And this is the testimony of John. When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to him to ask him, “Who are you?” … Some Pharisees were also sent.
This is an old but once common misreading of the koine Greek which was quite archaic by the time the 1960s came along. First of all, the text tells us that “priests and Levites” had been sent by Jewish authorities to question John the Baptist. Since priests and Levites were exclusively members of the Sadducees, it would be a contradiction for John to write that “those sent forth were from the Pharisees.” But the second point is that by the time the last half of the 20 th century came along the best and latest in Biblical Greek grammar studies had uncovered this centuries-long mistake. The Greek construction generally rendered “now” means “in addition to,” meaning that a second group made up of “some Pharisees” came along with their own group to question the Baptist (since Sadducees and Pharisees would not have believed each other’s testimony). Apparently whoever “translated” the NWT was not up on Greek grammar or was copying from a translation into English that was itself from the past.
Better Rendition of Biblical Poetry and American English Idiom
Psalm 51:6, 7 (8, 9 in the NABRE)
NWT:
Look! You have taken delight in truthfulness itself in the inward parts;
And in the secret self may you cause me to know sheer wisdom.
May you purify me from sin with hyssop, that I may be clean;
May you wash me, that I may become whiter even than snow.
NABRE:
Behold, you desire true sincerity;
and secretly you teach me wisdom.
Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
The NWT is both choppy in its attempt to render Biblical Hebrew correctly as well as clumsy in using modern English. There is also little attempt to render the text with respect to the original text's use of terse constuction (purposeful use of few words) and its connection to candence in representation of Semitical poetic thought. It's as if the translator has no idea there is a significant difference between translating into prose and rendering poetry.
Also the NWT rendition makes it sound as if one can "sin with hyssop" and that the psalmist is asking to be cleansed of such forbidden action with herbs.
Closer attention to word-tense and agreement with the most ancient witnesses.
Exodus 3:14
NWT:
At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’”
NABRE:
God replied to Moses: I am who I am. Then he added: This is what you will tell the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.
The NWT makes it sound as if one can fully comprehend God's name, and that this has reference to God being the Creator of all that is, the Great Cause and Origin of everything and everyone.
But the NABRE understands God's response as a play on words. While the root of YHWH is "to be," thus showing the connection God has with all creation in the heavens and on earth, the root word is built upon in the Hebrew text to illustrate that God is far more than merely the First Cause. Also YHWH has nothing to prove to anyone.
More than transcends even what humans can grasp about God is found within the meaning of the name which resists our ability to unravel it. This agrees with the LXX which renders this passage with the words ego eimi ho on--"I am the One who is."
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factfinder
@JuanMiguel-
Thank you very much for taking the time to provide this information!
Yes, the Nabre is much easier to understand in these verses!
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factfinder
@JuanMiguel-
Thank you again for the very informative posts. The Nabre does look easier to understand than the NWT.
I wish to comment on comparing the production figures however.
I mentioned that credit must be given to JWs because they alone have printed and distributed over 165 million copies of the NWT in nearly (soon to be) 100 languages. ( The 165 million is not the most up to date figure- they have not posted that yet.)
There are over 1 billion Catholics world wide, compared to 7.5 million jws.
In the USA there are more than 62 million Catholics compared to 1.1 million jws.
Since the NWT is published and printed ONLY by the WTS it is remarkable that they have printed so many copies by themselves. Well, to me, anyway.
Regarding how many Bibles jws place each week in the USA, I do not know. The wts does not release that info.
In the July,1,2009 issue of The Watchtower, on pages 15-17 there was a nice, albeit, brief article on the Wallkill printery. It gave some statistics for the 2008 service year. It mentions that during 2008 that printery produced over 243 million magazines and well over 28 million books. Included among these books were over 2.6 million complete Bibles.
Total book production worldwide by the WTS that year came to more than 106.8 million, including Bibles. This means that the 28 million plus that were printed in the USA is equal to about 26% of the total. I do not know the total number of Bibles they printed that year but I would estimate it at over 5 million.
Anyway, back to the USA, since they produced over 2.6 million Bibles in the USA that year, that comes to over 50,000 per week. Most of those would be in English so if half were in English it would equal that of the Nabre. But likley more than half were printed in English.
It is not fair really to compare how many Bibles are put out each year by the Catholic Church which is using several publishers, with that of JWs who print their own with no outside help.
This may be slightly off topic, but just to put the wts printing statistics in proper perspective and to help illustrate how large a printing operation they have, please consider the following:
The largest printing companies in the world are RR Donnelley and Sons Company and World Color Press ( Formerly called Quebecor World.)
These are commercial printing companies. Here in the USA if you go into any book store chances are that 90% of the books and magazines you see there have been printed by one of those two companies. Each of these two huge companies print for about 1,000 different publishers .
Donnelley prints about 500 million books and 3 billion magazines each year.
Worldcolor prints about 1 billion books and 2 billion magazines each.
Being commercial printers they each also print billions of catalogs, circulars, phone books, etc each year.
This is a lot of printing. But keep in mind- these are totals for over a thousand seperate publishing companies they each print for.
The WTS prints its own literature.
This includes over 980 million magazines and more than 100 million books each year.
This is more than any other SINGLE publishing company.
Each year the WTS prints, in addition to the above, more than 1 billion tracts, brochures, booklets and Kms, plus hundreds of millions of forms, calandars and other "small" printing.
Altogether they print in any given year between 2 and 3 billion bible-based publications. This is a very impressive figure! And it is in over 500 languages.
If we compare, therefore, the wts production of Bibles & books and of magazines with all other printing companies we find the wts ranks as
#5 book printer
#3 or #4 magazine printer.
But the WTS is not a commercial printer. So if we compare their book and magazine production to that of all of the in-plants we find the WTS ranks as:
#1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am not trying to praise the WTS but trying to show that as book and magazine printers they are among the largest in the world even though they only print literature for jws.
This is why I am so impressed with their printing operations.
JuanMiguel- thank you so much for posting all of the information you shared with us!
I look forward to any more info you can share when you can find the time. Thanks again!
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GLTirebiter
I mentioned that credit must be given to JWs because they alone have printed and distributed over 165 million copies of the NWT in nearly (soon to be) 100 languages.
That is an impressive figure, but when it comes to distributing Bibles I give credit where credit is due: to the Gideons. This has been accomplished by an organization estimated to have only 130,000 members, and (like the Watchtower Society) is just over 100 years old.
It's been just over 100 years since The Gideons International placed the first Bible in a hotel room in Montana. Today, The Gideons are organized in more than 190 countries around the globe. Bibles and New Testaments are printed for distribution by The Gideons in more than 90 languages. Through God's grace and to His Glory, more than 1.6 billion Bibles and New Testaments have been placed by The Gideons, and the work continues. . .
Thanks again to both Juans for their informative posts!
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factfinder
@GLTirebiter-
Yes- I remember always seeing little green bibles in the top desk drawer of every Holiday Inn we stayed at on vacations every summer when I was a child! They were always Gideon Bibles- 1.6 Billion- that is a lot!
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Wonderment
The NWT is much better as a translation than most here are willing to admit. Most of the NWT criticisms are based on religious bias, hate, and misinformation. Quite a bit of distortion too. Let us not be so naive! Give credit where it is due!
Check the link below for a more complete picture:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/48234022/Does-the-New-World-Translation-Committee-Know-Any-Greek
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Curtains
wonderment the NWT is a good translation and I would argue that it did have scholars on board even if they were existing texts. The fact that it was translated in the shadows is fine with me too (indeed the GB prolly couldn't care less either as they are vey suspicious of academia anyway).
However the point for me is that the catholic church allows different translations to exist - the NABRE is very different from the Jerusalem Bible - is particularly significant. Jehovahs witnesses would never allow this and to me this is a great loss as being allowed to do one's own research and make comparisons within one's own faith is enriching