I was really fishing on this thread, like I was hoping Jonathan Dough and that other fellow with the parrot on his shoulder would post something because I know they have strong feelings on this subject. Granted I didn't give it much time for them to make an appearance, but I got disappointed and figured I better make my confession.
One thing the WT got right was the Trinity being false.
by miseryloveselders 96 Replies latest jw friends
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dgp
I swear only a fool would believe in such a ludicrous doctrine that all three are one. Ridiculous.
I was raised as a Catholic, so I was one of those ridiculous fools. We received this teaching from parents and priests. When I was growing up, nearly everyone around me was a Catholic. The teeny tiny minority of those who weren't Catholics were more traditional Protestants, and the only people I knew NOT to believe in the Trinity were atheists, my grandfather, father and great-uncle being three. There must have been Jehovah's witnesses there back then, but I never met any until I was something like 14 and a classmate of mine happened to be one. Back then, I didn't know the Watchtower disagreed with the idea of a Trinity, so, until I was in my late teens, I never came up anyone who would question the Trinity. They would question the idea of god, any god, but not that of the trinity.
No one was ever encouraged to question the idea of a Trinity because everyone around me had the same opinion and it just didn't seem like this was one thing you should question. It was part of an "all or nothing": either you are "religious", meaning Christian, or not. So, either you believed in the Trinity, or not.
I have read the Watchtower's points on the Trinity and the idea is indeed absurd. I also read about the Johannine Comma, which is, if I understood correctly, an addition to the Bible made by Erasmus of Rotterdam to give strength to the idea of the Trinity. So, in my opinion, if they needed something that would help them "prove" the Trinity, then there is no Trinity.
Rather than lack of intelligence, believing the Trinity reflects lack of information and inability to think critically. Which is something Catholics were not very much encouraged to do, by the way; there was an Index of forbidden books until the 1960's, if I'm not mistaken. I still remember how I felt when, as a little child, I borrowed my great-uncle's copy of Gogol's Taras Bulba and read that it was published "with eclesiastical disapproval". I was doing the unthinkable, reading dirty books.
Also, t he Aztecs believed in many gods, but, among them, in Tloque Nahuaque, (Lord of the Near and Nigh), an omnipresent and dual god.
According to the Wikipedia, the Hindus believe this:
The identification of Vishnu, Shiva, and Brahma as one being is strongly emphasized in the Kurma Purana, where in 1.6 Brahman is worshipped as Trimurti; 1.9 especially inculcates the unity of the three gods, and 1.26 relates to the same theme. [ 11 ]
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti)
Since Christianity has 2.2 billion members, and Hinduism 1 billion, you're talking about 3.2 billion fools. Sad but true.
Sorry for the bias in my post, but sometimes it makes you feel bad to think that you believed something that is now proved to be nonsense.
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OUTLAW
No worrys Misery..
The bait is good..The fish aren`t here yet..
This thread will be Irresistable..
They will present the WBT$ Version of the Trinity..Then do everything to destroy it..
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...OUTLAW -
cofty
Trinitarians will always claim that their critics just don't understand the dogma properly.
Nonsense.
I assure you that if you were silly enough, as I once was, to invest the time and energy to grapple with the history and development of the doctrine, and to study all of its subtle heresies and conflicts. Once you fnally grap the finer nuances of what is meant by person and substance and what is actually implied by threeness and oneness, you will conclude that the emperor is still stark bollock naked.
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PSacramento
Jeez Cofty, all you need was to throw in "evidently" and "obviously" and that would have been worthy of the witing department at the WT !
LOL !
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scary21
I was shocked when I found out the WT lied about what other people believe the trinity is....but how would a JW ever know...they are not to read other writings.....keep them in the dark and you can say anything.......Trust them they know everything....NOT Sherry
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sabastious
I assure you that if you were silly enough, as I once was, to invest the time and energy to grapple with the history and development of the doctrine, and to study all of its subtle heresies and conflicts. Once you fnally grap the finer nuances of what is meant by person and substance and what is actually implied by threeness and oneness, you will conclude that the emperor is still stark bollock naked.
I think the Gospels contain both monotheism and polytheism concepts respectfully. I suspect it was purposefully written this way so that it's audience could be a wider demographic.
-Sab
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sabastious
I was shocked when I found out the WT lied about what other people believe the trinity is....but how would a JW ever know...they are not to read other writings.....keep them in the dark and you can say anything.......Trust them they know everything....NOT Sherry
Exactly, the Rank and File are effectively isolated from the Watchtower's enemies and then spoon fed propaganda that slanders them.
-Sab
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Mad Sweeney
Beings give birth according to their kind.
My wife didn't give birth to a sub-human creature. Why and how would Almighty God beget someone less than God? THAT is what makes no sense.
You want to debate that they're not equal? Fine. But that they're different types of beings? Impossible.
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Ding
Here are some Bible passages indicating that Jesus is God, not "a god."
The Watchtower believes that Jesus is a created being – not God.
But what does the Bible say?
We know that the NWT of John 1:1 reads: "… And the Word was a god."
Is Jesus a true god or a false god? JWs don't believe Jesus is Almighty God, they can't say that He is a true God. But they also know that they can't say Jesus is a false god."
True, there are many so-called gods and so-called lords (1 Corinthians 8:6), but they are false gods and false lords. In John 10:34-35, Jesus pointed out that in the Old Testament, many of Israel's rulers were called gods. However, by nature they are not gods (Galatians 4:8).
In fact, in Isaiah 43:10, the verse from which Jehovah's Witnesses take their name, Jehovah specifically says that what they are to be witnesses to is the following: "You are my witnesses," declares Jehovah, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. 11 I, even I, am the Jehovah, and apart from me there is no savior."
So the WTS says a true god was formed before Jehovah. Jehovah says there wasn’t.
In fact, Colossians 2:9 tells us: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form…"
Hebrews 1:3 tells us: "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word."Is Jesus merely an Archangel? Hebrews 1:4-5 says: "So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?
In Hebrews 1:6, we are told that "… when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." So Jesus is to be worshiped. This means that Jesus must be God because in Matthew 4:10, Jesus said to Satan: "Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"
Yes, the NWT translates Hebrews 1:6 as "Let all of God's angels do obeisance to him." However, in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation (KIT), it is clear that the same word – proskuneo – is used in both Hebrews 1:6 and Matthew 4:10.
Hebrews 1:7-8: "In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." 8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."
Again, the Watchtower translates this differently, but the Greek interlinear version shows that Jesus is being called God.Let's look at Colossians 1:15-17: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
The Watchtower uses this verse to claim that "firstborn" means that Jesus was the first creation of God, not God Himself. However, in the Jewish context, "firstborn" means "preeminent", not "the first one created." In Genesis 41:51-52, Joseph's first son (chronologically) was named Manasseh; his second son was named Ephraim. Yet, Jeremiah 31:9 says, "… Ephraim is my firstborn son." Why? Because Manasseh was disobedient and so Ephraim became the preeminent son.
Colossians 1:15 must be read in conjunction with the two verses that follow: " 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
All things were created BY Jesus and FOR Jesus. Jesus existed before all things, and it is in Jesus that all things hold together. This is not the description of a created being but of God Himself. It is in accord with John 1:3, which says of Jesus: "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
Yet, in Isaiah 44:24, Jehovah says: "I am Jehovah, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself…" This would be a hopeless contradiction UNLESS Jesus – as well as the Father – is Jehovah God.
In fact, many Old Testament titles that apply only to Jehovah are stated in the New Testament to refer to Jesus. Here are some examples:
– The first and the last (Jehovah: Isaiah 44:6; 48:12-13; Jesus: Revelation 1:17; 2:8; 22:13, 16)
– Alpha and Omega (Almighty God: Revelation 1:8; 21:6-7; Jesus: Revelation 22:13, 16)
– "I AM" (Jehovah: Exodus 3:14; Jesus: John 8:58 (have mum look this up in the Greek interlinear version))
– The one to whom every knee is to bow and every tongue confess (Jehovah: Isaiah 45:22-23; Jesus: Philippians 2:9-11)
– Creator (Jehovah: Psalm 102:24-27, applied directly to Jesus in Hebrews 1:8-12)
– Lord of Lords (Jehovah: Psalm 136:1; Deuteronomy 10:17; Jesus: Revelation 17:14; 19:16)
– Light (Jehovah: Micah 7:8; Isaiah 60:20; Jesus: John 1:9-10; 8:12; Luke 2:32)
– The Shepherd (Jehovah: Psalm 23:1; Jesus: John 10:11-12; Hebrews 13:20)
– Judge (God: Psalm 50:6; Genesis 18:25; Joel 2:12; Psalm 82:8; 96:10; Jesus, NOT the Father: John 5:22-23; 2 Timothy 4:1; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Matthew 25:31-32)
– Our only Savior (Jehovah: Hosea 13:4; Isaiah 43:3, 11; Isaiah 45:21-22; Jesus: Acts 4:10-12; 2 Peter 1:1; Titus 2:13)
– The Rock (Jehovah only: Isaiah 44:8; 2 Samuel 22:32; Exodus 17:6; Isaiah 17:10 Deuteronomy 32:37-39 Isaiah 8:13-14; Jesus: 1 Corinthians 10:1-4)
– Our Righteousness (Jehovah: Jeremiah 23:6; 33:16; 9:24; Jesus: 1 Corinthians 1:30-31)
The Watchtower has a number of proof-texts they use in support of their claim that Jesus is not God. What we have to remember is that Jesus was both God and man and that when he became man he gave up the independent exercise of his attributes as God and relied on his Father (Philippians 2:6-8).
This is why:
– Jesus (as man) said that "the Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)
– Jesus didn't know the day or hour of his return (Matthew 24:36)
– Jesus didn't know who touched him in a crowd (Mark 5:31; Luke 8:45)
– Jesus prayed to the Father and called the Father "my God" and "the only true God" (John 17:3; 20:17)
Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus "the beginning of the creation of God." The Watchtower uses this to claim that Jesus was the first creation of God. Actually, the word translated "beginning" means "source" or "origin". So Jesus is the SOURCE or ORIGIN of God's creation, not something God created. (see John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17)
The Watchtower points out that John 1:18 says, "No one has ever seen God…" Their argument is that since people have seen Jesus but have not seen God, Jesus cannot be God.
However, Exodus 24:9-10 says: "Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel." Also Genesis 18:1, 22-23, 33: "Jehovah appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day… 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before Jehovah. 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?… 33 When Jehovah had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home."
How can this be without there being a contradiction? The answer is the Trinity. No one has seen the entirety of God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But in the passages in Exodus 24 and Genesis 18, the people saw the pre-incarnate Son, who is God.
