One thing the WT got right was the Trinity being false. (page 7)

PSacramento

Isn't the real issue here the question of the divinity or the non-divinity of Christ?

Yes.

I am no theist, so it is a moot point for me - but, for the record - (in my opinion) in the years before his death, Ed Dunlap accepted the divinity of Christ. I never heard him accept the traditional trinity, but he did say this:

"To understand the Jehovah of the old Testament, you have to accept and understand the Jesus of the new Testament. Jesus is all we can know about the real Jehovah."

YHWH is revealed to US in his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, His Divine Word, Jesus.

I got the impression that Ed was saying that christians should replace notions about the war-god YHWH with the teachings of Jesus of the NT.

If the writers of the OT and the followers of the OT had gotten it right, there would have been no need for Christ.

The Watchtower religion has effectively done the opposite - expanding on the old Jehovah image at the expense of the Christ. In Watchtower theology the 144,000 and the GB are effectively as important as Christ.

The WT makes it clear, they are Witnesses to Jehovah, Not Christ.

While Christ says that His folowers (all christians) are to witnesses to HIM in Acts Chapter 1, the WT and JW's openly affirm that they are witnesses to Jehovah.

RubaDub

To better explain it ... think of the show Two and a Half Men

Combined, they make up the show, yet they are independent of each other.

Rub a Dub

My Zondervan encyclopeida spends three pages of small print on it. My personal take is that it is a human effort to describe something that we cannot understand. Religion is not the only place we do this, read a good discussion of quantum mechanics or string theory and then try to explain it to somebody.

I think the fact that trinitarians themselves struggle to define it is telling. It is VERY analogous to how scientists struggle to define and explain quantum mechanics/string theory. But those scientists readily admit that they take too many pages to explain their subject because their present understanding is incorrect, and that when they DO discover the real Theory of Eveything (TOE), it will be a very simple, easy to understand and explain theory. (Brian Greene, The Elegant Universe...excellent book)

I don't have strong feelings one way or the other, but I suspect the trinity to so difficult to explain because it is wrong. And I don't think God is playing 'hide the ball' with humans as to his "nature" by providing a book to describe himself and then presenting a theory that humans are not able to understand just as I don't believe he provided a book to humans to guide their lives but then gave the power to accurately understand that book to only a few men in New York or a few men at the Vatican.

On an interesting side note, I attend school with several Jews, one of whom is very devout. He constantly wears t-shirts with "Tel Aviv" written all over it and some with Israeli sayings...all written in Hebrew.

In class the issue of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism came up, and he became almost agitated, but what he said really surprised me. He commented that while Muslims are "like us" (and he emphasized the "us"), Christians believe in the trinity, and he almost sneered as he said the word "trinity," which he then went on the say was a 'pagan doctrine Christians adopted.' He truly had more of a religious affinity with Muslims over Christians because of the trinity issue.

So, regardless of how you define the trinity, JWs don't believe in it, but they are not the first, and they are FAR, FAR from being the only ones. Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Zoroastrinians, Christadelphians, etc. all do not believe in the trinity.

PSacramento

Trinitarians have no problem defining it, people that THINK they know what it is have problem with it.

Trinitarians are monotheistic and only those that don't know what the trinity is, can think of them otherwise.

I recall when a muslim neighbour of mine asked me what it was, what it meant, and it took me all of 1 minute to explain and he understood and did NOT think that it meant 3 gods or anything silly like that.

Justitia Themis

That must be because you are super, duper special PSacramento. I supose all the leading scholars and academics that are still writing books about the trinity and the nature of God should have just called YOU!!!!!

WontLeave

think of the show Two and a Half Men; Combined, they make up the show, yet they are independent of each other.

The Watchtower has misrepresented the tenets of this teaching, and their interpretation of the doctrine of the Trinity is actually known as Modalism.

Trinitarians don`t believe 3 are one

Here is the section of the Athanasian Creed pertaining to Trinity. If you don't believe this, you believe something other than the Trinity, so rather than tell others they don't understand what the Trinity is, perhaps you believe something other than the Trinity and are using "Trinity" as a misnomer. Catholics came up with the definition and the name. If you disagree with the definition and choose to call a different belief by the same name, don't accuse other people of being confused about your doctrine when they describe another doctrine that prexisted yours by the name used long before your doctrine adopted it.

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

streets76

What matters is your FAITH, and faith is not based on Bible, faith is a gift and you only need to accept it

"Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!"

"Again?"

PSacramento

That must be because you are super, duper special PSacramento. I supose all the leading scholars and academics that are still writing books about the trinity and the nature of God should have just called YOU!!!!!

That's what I keep telling them !!!

TTWSYF

They may have gotton more than one thing right, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I always hear mentioned [from JWs] Deut.6;4 'Hear, O Israel ; The Lord our God is one Lord'

What is also interesting to note is that in Hebrew there are two words for one. There is yachid- meaning one singular. And there is 'echad which can suggest a unity of other things. ei - evening and morning became one ['echad] day, husband and wife became one ['echad] flesh. This is how this passage is written in reference to being one ['echad] God.

So, it is possible to see how people would believe that God is more than one being or thing. Couple that with the numerous passages that equate Jesus to God, add that to the passages that equate the Holy Spirit to God and one can see how people could possibly believe that.

Now add those facts to the church fathers listed in the booklet 'Should you believe in the trinity' Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Origin. Each one of those men listed have writings available that assert that Jesus was God [the son].

respectfully,

DC

cyberjesus

I swear only a fool would believe in such a ludicrous doctrine that all three are one. Ridiculous.

Yeah, thats Ridiculous, I mean common, God is one and one only and lives in the Sky, with the other God, Jesus who is his son that he created with his own spiritual hands and they are there ...... up there.... somewhere there... up in the firmament....... and no space for a third God or any stupid idea like that. I mean you have to be a fool to believe that 1 is 3 and 3 is 1... I mean 1 is 1 and 3 is 3 that is obvious.

One thing the WT got right was the Trinity being false.

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