One thing the WT got right was the Trinity being false.

by miseryloveselders 96 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  onemore

  The Watchtower has misrepresented the tenets of this teaching, and their interpretation of the doctrine of the Trinity is actually known as Modalism.

  I have not been able to fully grasp the concept of the Trinity. But I find that it’s very difficult to reconcile some bible passages with any doctrine that denies the co-eternal existence and oneness of the Father and the Son.

  But the one thing that I have come to realize is that most all of the pseudo Christian denominations that deny the Trinity and Jesus divinity are “cults“. And almost always the attention is directed to the human leader(s) as oppose to Christ. When they detach the Son from the Father, they take away that special relationship that should exist between each believer and Christ.

  It needs to make sense to me before I accept the teaching, but what I’m sure of is this; that the “Watchtower’s Jesus” is not the resurrected Jesus that they early Christians worshipped. The Jesus that the Bible presents to me was more than a man, equal to God and in essence Divine (specially after the resurrection and ascension). Not just a model JW with special privileges in heaven.
• 

  Ding

  Regarding the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit, it’s important to understand what the Trinity doctrine does and doesn’t say, because the WTS often misrepresents it.
  
  A basic statement of the Trinity doctrine is that within the nature of the one true God there are three distinct persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "Distinct" means that the Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
  
  The NWT translates 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 as follows: "Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. And all of us, while we was unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit."
  
  This tells us that Jehovah is the Spirit. How is it, then, that Jehovah = Spirit = person = God, but somehow the Holy Spirit = spirit = impersonal force?
  
  Let's see what specific Scriptures tell us about the Holy Spirit.
  
  In Acts 5, a man named Ananias lied to the apostles about how much of his property he was donating to the church. Acts 5:3-4 says this: "Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
  
  Notice that in verse 3, Peter says that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit. You cannot lie to an impersonal force like electricity. You can only lie to a person. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is a person, and verse 4 says, "You have not lied to men but to God." The Holy Spirit can be lied to, and the Holy Spirit is specifically called God.
  
  Regarding spiritual gifts, 1 Corinthians 12:11 says, "All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." Notice here that it is the Holy Spirit that determines which person gets which spiritual gifts. The Holy Spirit therefore has a mind and a will; He is not an impersonal force.
  
  Acts 13:2, 4: "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them…4 The two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia and sailed from there to Cyprus."
  
  Notice that it was the Holy Spirit who decided what ministry Barnabas and Saul would have and called them to it. The Holy Spirit even spoke to the apostles using the personal pronoun "I." It was also the Holy Spirit who sent them on their way.

  Acts 10:19-20: "9 Meanwhile, as Peter was puzzling over the vision, the Holy Spirit said to him, "Three men have come looking for you. 20 Go down and go with them without hesitation. All is well, for I have sent them."
  
  Romans 8:26-27 says: "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will."
  
  Notice from this passage that the Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father on our behalf. Intercession can only be done by a person. The Holy Spirit groans, indicating that He has emotions. In verse 27, we are told that the Holy Spirit has a mind, that He intercedes for the saints, and that He understands God's will.
  
  1 Corinthians 2:10-11 says: "…but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no
  one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."
  
  Notice that God reveals truths by his Spirit. The Spirit is able to search the deep things of God. The Spirit knows the thoughts of God. The Holy Spirit, therefore, is not an impersonal force. The Holy Spirit must be God, because who can understand all of God's thoughts except God Himself?
  
  In John 14:26, Jesus said: "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
  
  Notice that the Holy Spirit is a counselor and a teacher. This also indicates that the Holy Spirit is a person.
  
  In Acts 15:28, the apostles wrote: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements…" Only a person can decide what requirements to impose on a group of people.
  
  Isaiah 63:10: "Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them." Here, the Holy Spirit can be rebelled against and experience grief. These are characteristics of personality.
  
  Ephesians 4:30: "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Again, the Holy Spirit can experience grief. This is any motion that can only be experienced by a person.
  
  The Holy Spirit is God, not an impersonal force. John 4:24: "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
  
  The Father, Son and Holy Spirit all share one name in which we are to be baptized. Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…"
  
  The Watchtower says that since many people can be simultaneously filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 4:31), the Holy Spirit cannot be a person. However, Colossians 1:19 says of Christ: "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him…" Here, it is the fullness of God Himself that dwelt in Jesus. And in Ephesians 3:19, Paul prays that his readers might "… may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God." These verses show that it is quite possible for many people to be filled with the fullness of God Himself. Clearly, does not mean that God is an impersonal force.
  
  I think these passages demonstrate that the Holy Spirit is both a person and God Himself.
• 

  garyneal
• 

  myelaine

  Come near to Me, hear this:
  I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
  From the time that it was, I was there.
  And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
  Have [a] sent Me.”

  Footnotes:

  1. Isaiah 48:16 The Hebrew verb is singular.

  love michelle
• 

  yourmomma

  When you say that watchtower was right about the trinity being wrong, you have to define what you mean. For example:

  Do you mean that the watchower is right that what they say is the trinity is wrong, or do you mean that watchtower is right that that the ACTUAL trinity is wrong?

  I am not a trinitarian, however I have researched it heavily, and one thing that is clear is that the watchtower misrepresents the trinity docterine, just like they do evolution.

  so make sure you first understand what the trinity docterine is, and what the watchtower SAYS it is. to completly different things.
• 

  sir82

  And away we go!
• 

  Mad Sweeney

  Which is wrong, the trinity doctrine or the WT individual god and son doctrine?

  Both. Theism is hogwash.
• 

  yourmomma

  its all about context. the Bible, inspired or not had writers that believed and taught certain things, just like the Koran. I'd take issue with a person who claims that Koran doesnt teach Muhamad was a prophet, just like I'd take issue with a person who claims the wirters of the NT didnt believe Jesus was God.

  Does it mean Jesus actually IS God or that Muhamad is actually God's prophet? No, that is another discussion.

  Same deal with the whole Jesus/Mythra paralell. Just because that paralell has no historical primary sources to back it up, and is considered by scholars on both sides of the fense to be bogus, doesnt mean the Bible is true and that Jesus is real. It just means that the paralells between Jesus and Mythra are factually incorrect.
• 

  Murray Smith

  In all the efforts to "nail down" a generally acceptable "doctrine" . . . (unlikely) . . . surely one thing can be acknowledged.

  That the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit share a "nature" which is not seen outside of the three . . . is that not enough? . . . I feel that it is the human need to define things in black and white and give it a label, that fosters disagreement, rather than what we know . . . in all things there exists, large or small, a degree of the "unknown" . . . we just find it hard to allow for it.

  Luvonyall
• 

  Spade

  I'm surprised this is not disconcerting to Trinitarians: The Trinity is completely incompatible with objective reality so doesn't God need to insert erroneous texts into the Bible to support something that is incomprehensible like the Trinity.
  
  Considering the mysterious nature of the Triune Godhead, I would think something like this would be pretty important, so shouldn't God have been a lot more clear on this? Shouldn't he have stated something such as "Hey, there are three of us in one entity you need to worship" or "Hey, I have multiple personalities" or something to that effect?
  
  ti p. 4 How Is the Trinity Explained?
  
  “Beyond the Grasp of Human Reason”
  
  This confusion is widespread. The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be “beyond the grasp of human reason.”
  
  Many who accept the Trinity view it that same way. Monsignor Eugene Clark says:“God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it.” Cardinal John O’Connor states:“We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.” And Pope John Paul II speaks of “the inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity.”
  
  Thus, A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge says:“Precisely what that doctrine is, or rather precisely how it is to be explained, Trinitarians are not agreed among themselves.”
  
  We can understand, then, why the New Catholic Encyclopedia observes:“There are few teachers of Trinitarian theology in Roman Catholic seminaries who have not been badgered at one time or another by the question,‘But how does one preach the Trinity?’ And if the question is symptomatic of confusion on the part of the students, perhaps it is no less symptomatic of similar confusion on the part of their professors.”
  
  The truth of that observation can be verified by going to a library and examining books that support the Trinity. Countless pages have been written attempting to explain it. Yet, after struggling through the labyrinth of confusing theological terms and explanations, investigators still come away unsatisfied.
  The Trinity (triads of deities) originated outside of God's Word and true worship.
  
  it-1 p. 237 Babylon
  
  Babylon was a most religious place. Evidence from excavations and from ancient texts points to the existence of more than 50 temples. The principal god of the imperial city was Marduk, called Merodach in the Bible. It has been suggested that Nimrod was deified as Marduk, but the opinions of scholars as to identifications of gods with specific humans vary. Triads of deities were also prominent in the Babylonian religion. One of these, made up of two gods and a goddess, was Sin (the moon-god), Shamash (the sun-god), and Ishtar; these were said to be the rulers of the zodiac. And still another triad was composed of the devils Labartu, Labasu, and Akhkhazu. Idolatry was everywhere in evidence.