Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou 175 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Deputy Dog

  Tammy

  He didn't just come to die for Adam's sin.

  Paul never said he "just" came to die for Adam's sin. That's the WTS lie! I never said that, nor do I think Nic meant that. What Paul did say was, Adam's sin makes us, or proves that we are, all sinners by nature. Adams sin proves that even before Adam sinned he had no righteousness of his own, he was innocent, NOT righteous. We can't make ourselves righteous even if we could stop sinning, our hearts would still be unrighteous. Faith in Christ, gives us a new nature and a hope in Christ's righteousness.

  But Christ is the truth. So anything I test (as in test the spirits) would be against Him, and what He says and does.

  The only way you can know what he said or did is through the New Testament, that's the point. The Bible (including the NT) is what we are test the spirits with.
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  unshackled

  Is sin an evolutionary trait passed down in our DNA?

  I've explained what I believe sin is. Wrongdoing. Moral and criminal. It comes from within us. From our choices. I might say from our heart... but that is not exactly a scientific explanation. It is more of a spiritual/philosophical one.

  The begs some interesting questions. So all life has evolved on this planet from a common origins, humans share "cousinship" with all animals. So IF humans are sinful, what about the rest of the animal kingdom? Are monkeys sinful? Why and how did sin enter into evolving life on this planet?
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  poopsiecakes

  Here's the thing, Tammy - and this is where I believe you're engaging in mental gymnastics - unless the Genesis account is fact and Adam & Eve sinned which is why we're all sinners then atonement for sin is moot. If god created us as imperfect creatures, it's moot. If he used evolution, it's moot. Sin becomes relative and to be dealt with by society as the need arises and society (wait for it) evolves. You can't have it both ways and your faith in Christ has made a situation where you have to selectively ignore facts to make other facts fit in with your faith somehow and it just doesn't jive.

  Love you though!
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  tec

  Paul never said he "just" came to die for Adam's sin. That's the WTS lie!

  I agree! 100% That is what I've been saying too.

  I never said that, nor do I think Nic meant that.

  Nic?

  All I am saying is that with or without Adam being a literal person, sin is still here. That the Adam/Eve story could just be a story explaining why man sins... without being literal... and still maintain the need for Christ to come and atone for our sins; and to show us the way to live. Because it is for us that God sent Him.

  The Bible (including the NT) is what we are test the spirits with.

  Using the bible to test the spirits is pales without the Spirit to guide us, and teach us. This is what people have done since the beginning of time (or at least since the beginning of scripture), and yet they continue to misunderstand, and misinterpret, what those scriptures have said. If the Spirit was teaching all of them, then how can that be? How can we have so many different denominations... most all of them teaching some truths and some falsehoods?

  Maybe you and others find Him in the scriptures. That is not for me to say, and they certainly do tell the witness accounts about Him. But as far as I know, he did not say for people to search the scriptures to come to Him. He didn't even tell anyone to write down the things He said. He simply said, "Come to me."

  I am doing my best to listen to Him.

  Tammy
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  tec

  Unshackled, if Adam simply represents mankind, then the whole made in God's image is still valid. So there is still distinction between man and animal.
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  unshackled

  Tammy...too many threads on the go! And gotta go mow the lawn...but quickly for now...

  if Adam simply represents mankind, then the whole made in God's image is still valid. So there is still distinction between man and animal.

  The reality is from an evolutionary perspective is that humans ARE animals. We have all evolved from the same source, we share DNA with everything...heck even dandelions. The bible paints a picture that man is above all these things, that we rule over lowly animals and plants. But in reality that is not the case. Personally I find that view of human superiority rather arrogant.
  
  It is true humans have evolved into the most intelligent animals on the planet. But it is a sliding scale of intelligence - dolphins and chimpanzees are also highly intelligent. Point is...if humans are sinful then all living things must be sinful. Where did it come from...if there is a god why did he make it so? I just don't see logic in that.
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  tec

  Unshackled, humans have the ability to love all other creatures. To care for the entire world. To care for species out of generosity and love, and not for gain. I know that some animals will care for an injured animal in their midst, even one not of their own kind. But that is as far as it goes for them. I think it is instinct for them, but that is neither here nor there.

  To have the ability to care for the world, for our own, and for those who are not are own... and not to do it? That is wrong. Sin, imo.

  To have the ability to care for the world, for our own, and for those who are not are own... and to destroy it and hurt others? That is even worse. Put like that, it comes off as evil, at least to me.

  We are not the same as animals. Animals can't sin. They don't know better, they're not capable of better. We are.

  Tammy
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  unshackled

  We are not the same as animals. Animals can't sin. They don't know better, they're not capable of better. We are.

  We were once less intelligent, less self-aware animals. We've since advanced over millions of years. So at what point in our evolutionary history, the sliding scale of intelligence, did we become sinners? Was there a specific moment where suddenly modern humans became sinners? And why did god make it so?
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  tec

  If humanity evolved from lesser animals, then at the point of knowing what we should do, but choosing not to do it. If there was no Adam and Eve at all, then I suppose God could have revealed himself to us as soon as we became capable of knowing him, by seeking him out.

  God would not have made it so... that we did wrong instead of right. We would have made it so.

  (as a theory)

  Off that question for a moment:

  There is another biblical theory as well for how sin entered the world even without Adam and Eve being literal... and that is that the 'enemy' planted weeds among the wheat. As in the parable that Christ spoke, when the 'tenants' in that parable asked where the weeds came from, if the farmer planted only good seed. I think that this might have been referring to something else, but Christ also referred to some who listened to their Father, Satan. Since Satan was involved in the whole Adam/Eve fiasco, it doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to me. At least to consider as another alternative to the whole 'deck' falling apart.

  I haven't even told everyone what I believe about the Adam/Eve story - although I may have mentioned it in other threads. But I don't think it should matter. There is nothing special about me, and my view is just one of many. But I can see other alternatives. I can think of things other than what some or even many denominations teach. I guess I was hoping that some of you could see that too; that the message of Christ is not based on Adam and Eve being literal. Some doctrine or theory might fall apart, such as restitution or substitution theology, but the message of Christianity - which should be Christ and what He came to do for US - does not.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  Terry

  Tammy, if you'll just change your name to Timmy these guys will take you more seriously.

  After all, Eve was a woman too.

  Our beloved Apostle Paul made clear to them a woman was not to teach a man. This is deeply engrained.

  So, if you create a sock puppet persona and log back on a Timmy I'm sure the guys will accept and defend your

  ideas as worthy then. Just a suggestion, mind you.....