by the pharmer 137 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Thanks Steve2, I appreciate what you've said. I'll try to explain briefly. My friend not only has their beliefs (that part I can accept), but they have also made several bold claims to me (which I cannot acccept without examining the evidence, and part of examining the evidence will involve asking questions). Make sense?
OTWO (and others too) thanks so much for the input!
@the pharmer:
I wanted my JW friend's perspective on something, so I asked them this question:
If I read a passage of scripture and conclude about it something that opposes the WT's view of the same passage, in your mind who has the truth about that passage (i.e. who is correct)?
If you were to read a passage of Scripture and were to draw a conclusion that is a different from the one reached by Jehovah's Witnesses, this would not necessarily mean that your conclusion was incorrect. Before the early 1960s, Jehovah's Witnesses had taken the view that the "higher powers" (KJV) or "superior authorities" (NWT) to which the apostle Paul refers at Romans 13:1 were Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. However, the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society were deluged with so many letters during this time period from Jehovah's Witnesses all over the world that were unable to follow the reasoning that led some to such a conclusion, but they continued to speak in agreement on this point as they awaited the settling of this question.
It was finally settled when the part of the verse at Romans 13:1 -- "the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God" -- indicated that the higher authorities/superior authorities could not possibly be God since these "authorities" were made to stand in their relative positions by God. The only point I am making here is that there are too many things that Jehovah's Witnesses have gotten wrong over the years and it is because there are not 10 or 20, or 1,000 or 2,000, but many thousands of people -- and not all of them Jehovah's Witnesses -- that desire to understand God's word and they are the ones seeking answers from anyone that reads the Bible, and not just from Jehovah's Witnesses or Roman Catholics or one of the Protestant denominations. The truth is going to be the truth no matter who has it, so the question is, how sincere is your search for truth?
I'm going to tell you something that you might not be persuaded to believe at this moment, but what is amazing about Jehovah's Witnesses is that many of the folks that have for years been searching for the truth have flocked to us, have studied the Bible with us, have attended many of our meetings and have decided to remain with us by becoming dedicating disciples of Jesus Christ and symbolizing the dedication of themselves to God by means of water baptism.
But not all of those doing so necessarily remain with us for all time, for some of these might leave us for a time because of feeling uncomfortable over the issue of blood transfusions or political affiliations or military service or even homosexuality, and no one that becomes one of Jehovah's Witnesses is obliged to remain such, nor is it impermissible for those that leave our ranks for a time to return to us.
People have to be responsible for working out their own salvation, for no human has the capacity to save anyone, not even himself (or herself). The point I wish to make in response to your question, @the pharmer, is that time will tell whose opinion is the correct one. It's not a big deal if you should find it unsettling to not think of God as being a trinity, especially is this is what you learned God to be; many people came to understand God to be three Persons and yet one God from their youth, and until they are convinced from the Bible to the opinion held by Jehovah's Witnesses that God is not triune, but is a Spirit that resides in the invisible heaven in a different dimension than ours, even as His Son, Jesus, is a Spirit as well, the active force of God, His holy spirit, being that which God uses to accomplish His will and purposes often personified, but not having a personality like a person at all.
If you were to read a passage of scripture and conclude about it something that opposes my view as one of Jehovah's Witnesses as to the meaning of this same passage, in my mind you have a mistaken view that needs to be adjusted to the Scriptures, but you are the only one that could prove to yourself from the Scriptures whether or not you have a mistaken viewpoint. God is not going to suddenly declare me right and you wrong, but God's spirit is the One that will reveal the truth and it does so progressively. (Did you notice how I just personified the holy spirit by calling it "the One"?)
I thought this would have been an easy question for my friend to answer, but for whatever reason, two weeks have passed and it still remains unanswered (not even acknowledged).
Perhaps your friend wants to be careful that he responds to your question in such a way that he or she doesn't stumble you by his or her answer to it; I don't know.
Can I get some feedback from some of you (realizing many of you are xJW) as to whether or not this would be an easy question to answer as a JW?
The question you ask would be a relatively easy question for most Jehovah's Witnesses to answer, but not everyone that currently is one of Jehovah's Witnesses nor those here on JWN that are currently in fade or who have for whatever reason left our ranks have reached the degree of maturity that many have reached in order to answer such a question, they being for the most part tied to Watchtower publications as a crutch, they been folks that have never really learned how to use the Bible to answer Bible-related questions.
Jesus' ministry, for example, lasted 3-1/2 years, and yet were some of these to be asked in what year -- 29 AD, 30 AD, 31 AD, 32 AD or 33 AD -- did a particular event discussed in one of the gospels occur, they would be unable to answer or to prove their answer scripturally. And if they cannot handle four gospel accounts about Jesus' life, they certainly cannot scripturally handle questions about the destruction of Jerusalem, when the appointed times of the nations, the "seven times" about which the prophet Daniel spoke at Daniel 4:25, began. For example, they do not yet understand the difference between Nebuchadnezzar's accession year after his victory of Pharaoh Necho in 625 BC, the same year that Nebuchdnezzar's father (Nebopolassar) dies, nor do they comprehend what the meaning of his regnal year, let alone how 607 BC would be calculated as being his 18th regnal year.
The Bible speaks of Jewish servitude began during Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year, which was in 618 BC, and how during his 23rd regnal year some of Jew were captured by Nebuchadnezzar's bodyguard (Nebuzaradan) from Egypt, which would have been in 602 BC, but they couldn't really explain this to anyone using just the Bible. Many might know that the Nabonidus Chronicle is a rock of some sort, but they do not know the significance of it as it relates to the fall of Babylon to the Persians in 539 BC.
Consequently, when folks assert 587 BC, instead of year 607 BC as the date when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians, they cannot prove them wrong scripturally. Remember I said earlier that God's spirit is the One that will reveal the truth and that it will do so progressively? I did not mean to suggest that all Jehovah's Witnesses have all of them come to acquire an accurate knowledge of Scripture; this is not the case. Nor am I suggesting that everyone that becomes one of Jehovah's Witnesses can actually use the Bible books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel to prove what things that have committed to memory from one of our publications. This doesn't make them bad people, but they cannot know the truth by memorizing what they read in our publications alone, but they must read and study the Bible.
Now what I am talking to you about here is maturity, not about the maturity of someone that associates with Jehovah's Witnesses for a time, and then leaves us for a while to pursue their own ideas on the truth, only to return to us later, but the maturity of those that join our ranks and never leave us because they recognize that they have found the truth. This happens more than you might realize, but the fact is that this does happen a lot, and this is why I am not unduly critical to JWN members that have different opinions than I do about the Bible, and are presently haters of God.
You see, there are many lurkers here that are reading my posts and so they are in a position to benefit from what things I say here in reply to the many (immature) gripes they read here as many of my responses are lampooned or criticized by these dreadful "haters." My hope is that some of these here will return to us some day before it is too late for them to do so.
I really don't mean it to be a deep question; take it for what it is asking.
I like your question. I hope that you will feel free to ask follow questions.
@djeggnog
" Is this not an easy question?"
You sound just like WT. "Is this not..." means "I want you to agree", so why not just say that's what you want right out in the open? Who goes around talking like that! "Is this not my bar of soap?" "Is this not my sneaky way of setting up a conversation so that anyone who disagrees with me has lost before they start?"
Pharmer (Farmer), eh? Whatcha cultivatin'? Is this not a ploy to get people to "examine their faith"?
Pharmer - My fully believing JW personality would question the motive of your question. It is worded in a way that I would think you wanted me to question or debate my faith. As a Witness, I would be confident that I had the truth and that I most certainly would stick with the explanation of the "faithful and discreet slave" over yours. The faithful and discreet slave doesn't have to be correct on everything, they just have to be faithful, and as God's channel, I would stick with them. If I knew you well enough to think your motive was other than interest in my faith, I probably wouldn't respond to the question either ... If I thought you were really interested, I would avoid a direct answer, be vague, and first try to reason with you on other scriptural points so you would see that I had the truth. If I could show you reasonably from the Bible that A, B, C, and D made sense the way I believed it as a Witness then wouldn't it be reasonable to accept that X, Y, and Z was too?
Witnesses don't think they have to have everything right to have the truth. They believe they are led by God's Spirit, they are His one organization on earth, they are the only ones ultimately doing his will, and the light is always getting brighter.
Haven't read the whole thread(once again I should be working, not on here !)
It strikes me your question may raise the level of Cognitive Dissonance in your JW friend. Because, you kind of put them in a Catch22 situation, they know it is forbidden to dissent with the current WT teaching, though this teaching may change tomorrow, and again the day after, but they know too that much of the teaching is hard, or impossible, to really support from scripture.
What they would really like to say to you is, "Yes your conclusion may be correct, but you should wait on jehovah to give light to his GB that confirms your understanding before you talk about your conclusion"
And that way of intellectual living seems sensible to them. Sigh.
Fundamentalist religions like JWs, Mormons and others have an agenda of limiting information and honesty until you are committed to them.
That also means it is very difficult to get straight answers about anything other than simple basic stuff.
For those answers you need places and websites that openly critique what ever religion you have questions about.
oz
eggnog, what pray tell do you think you accomplish with these posts? A simple question all of a sudden becomes about 587/607 and your own knowledge? Ease up dude. You scare away far more people than you could ever hope to help. This thread was about The Pharmers question, not your beliefs.
It isn't that the question is difficult in itself, it is that the question betrays the fact that you are willing to think about a scripture outside of the guidance of the GB/FDS. This makes you a spiritual danger to the JW and so he/she is avoiding the question, and you, as much as possible.
I never post anything religious on my real Facebook page, but I recently received a comment from one of the few JWs who haven't un-friended me trying to tell me that my comments are intended to cause JWs to doubt. They're paranoid. When a guy who doesn't go to meetings anymore says life is good and happy and posts articles about good people doing good things in the world, it hits the JW's cognitive dissonance and scares them.
I also realize that even if I find one of my current beliefs to be in err, it does not prove someone else's belief is true. In the end, I only want to hold on to what stands the tests.
Do you believe that you must have a set of beliefs? If so, why? Do you think that your life would fall apart somehow if you had no beliefs?
djeggnog,
The one point you completely miss is that the fact you may be ULTIMATELY correct in your understanding of a scripture, means nothing at the time of your coming to that understanding. Using your example of the "superior authorities" in Romans 13:1, if your understanding was that those authorities were the earthly governments at the time the WTS understood it to mean Jah and Jesus...and if you openly disagreed with that understanding, YOU would be disciplined. Why?...not because you would ultimately be proved correct, but rather because you disrupted the "unity" of the congregation. Being right or wrong has nothing to do with the WTS...it is being in lock-step agreement with them at the time that matters.
The truth is going to be the truth no matter who has it, so the question is, how sincere is your search for truth?
Does this sincerity allow a search outside the confines of religious teachings?
