The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

by whereami 209 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

PSacramento

Likewise, I've never encountered a JW who will admit there is human leadership which must be obeyed. The fds and Trinity doctines are nearly identical in every way. Extrapolated from Scripture and forced down the laity's throats until they "get it". Once the laity "get it", their fragile egos get bent all out of shape when dealing with someone who doesn't "get it".
A vaid comparison.
Just like JWs, you have to nail them down in their writings, because those can't be adapted to weasel out of the argument.
Indeed, but you will NOT find that the trinity is the basis for salvation in the writings of the Holy See:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm
IN BRIEF
261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
262 The Incarnation of God's Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father the Son is one and the same God.
263 The mission of the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father in the name of the Son (Jn 14:26) and by the Son "from the Father" (Jn 15:26), reveals that, with them, the Spirit is one and the same God. "With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified" (Nicene Creed).
264 "The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as the first principle and, by the eternal gift of this to the Son, from the communion of both the Father and the Son" (St. Augustine, De Trin. 15, 26, 47: PL 42, 1095).
265 By the grace of Baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity, here on earth in the obscurity of faith, and after death in eternal light (cf. Paul VI, CPG § 9).
266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).
267 Inseparable in what they are, the divine persons are also inseparable in what they do. But within the single divine operation each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, especially in the divine missions of the Son's Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
PSacramento

ANd futher to that:
IN BRIEF
2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.
2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.
2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.
2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.
2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.
2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
2028 "All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (LG 40 § 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.:PG 44, 300D).
2029 "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24).
still thinking

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
PSacramento

You guys know that the Athanasian creed is just ONE of the creed right? and that it it was written to combat some of the heresy's of the time, typically arianism, right?
What I posted is the official doctrine of the RCC.
And example of some thoughts on the creed:
While the Athanasian Creed is a good summary of Christian doctrine on the subjects of the Trinity, and the deity / humanity of Jesus Christ, there are a couple of issues that must be dealt with. First, in regards to the phrase "catholic church," this does not refer to the Roman Catholic Church. The word "catholic" means universal. The true "catholic" church is all those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Please see our article on the universal church. Second, the Athanasian Creed demands belief in all of its tenets for salvation. While we agree with the tenets, we do not believe that all of them are mandatory for salvation.
still thinking

You cannot be saved unless you are baptised. You cannot be baptised unless you confess belief in the trinity
PSacramento

You cannot be saved unless you are baptised. You cannot be baptised unless you confess belief in the trinity
Salvation as per the RCC offical site:
Total salvation
1. In the programmatic speech Jesus gave in the synagogue of Nazareth at the beginning of his ministry, he applied to himself the prophecy of Isaiah in which the Messiah appears as the one sent to proclaim "release to the captives" (Lk 4:18; cf. Is 61:1-2).Jesus comes to offer us a salvation which, although primarily a liberation from sin, also involves the totality of our being with its deepest needs and aspirations. Christ frees us from this burden and threat and opens the way to the complete fulfilment of our destiny.2. Sin, Jesus reminds us in the Gospel, puts man in a state of slavery: "Truly, truly I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin" (Jn 8:34).Jesus’ listeners think of freedom primarily in external terms, proudly relying on the privilege of being the people of the Covenant: "We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to any one" (ibid., v. 33). Jesus is anxious to draw their attention to another more basic freedom, threatened not so much from the outside as from the snares found in the human heart itself. Whoever is oppressed by the dominating, destructive power of sin cannot accept Jesus’ message, much less his person, the only source of true freedom: "If the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed" (ibid., v. 36). It is only the Son of God who, by communicating his divine life, can make men share in his filial freedom.Jesus communicates divine love to each person3. The liberation offered by Christ removes, in addition to sin, the obstacles preventing friendship and a covenant relationship with God. From this standpoint it is a reconciliation.Paul wrote to the Christians of Corinth: "God... through Christ reconciled us to himself" (2 Cor 5:18). This reconciliation is obtained by the sacrifice of the Cross. From it flows that peace which consists in the fundamental agreement of the human will with the divine.This peace not only affects relations with God, but also concerns relations between human beings. Christ "is our peace", because he unites all who believe in him, reconciling them "to God in one body" (cf. Eph 2:14-16).4. It is comforting to think that Jesus does not limit himself to freeing the heart from the prison of selfishness, but communicates divine love to each person. At the Last Supper he gives the new commandment which must characterize the community he founded: "Love one another as I have loved you" (Jn 13:34; 15:12). The newness of this precept of love consists in the words: "as I have loved you". The "as" points to the Teacher as the model who must be imitated by his disciples, but at the same time it points to the origin or source of mutual love in him. Christ communicates to his disciples the power to love as he loved, he raises their love to the superior level of his own, and urges them to tear down the barriers that divide people.His desire to put an end to all discrimination and exclusion can be powerfully seen in the Gospel. He overcomes the obstacles preventing contact with lepers, who are subjected to a painful segregation. He violates the customs and rules which tend to isolate those considered "sinners". He does not accept the prejudices which put women in an inferior position, but accepts them among his followers and has them serve his kingdom. The disciples must imitate his example. The entry of God’s love into human hearts is expressed in a special way in the obligation to love our enemies: "I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust" (Mt 5:44-45).5. Starting from the heart, the salvation brought by Jesus is extended to the various areas of human life: spiritual and physical, personal and social. By defeating sin with his Crucifixion, Christ inaugurates a movement of integral liberation. In his public life he himself heals the sick, frees people from demons and alleviates every kind of suffering, thereby showing a sign of God’s kingdom. He tells the disciples to do the same when they preach the Gospel (cf. Mt 10:8; Lk 9:2; 10:9).How rich and deep is the salvation Christ brings If not by miracles, which depend on divine consent, then certainly by works of fraternal charity and the commitment to promoting justice, Christ’s disciples are called to make an active contribution to eliminating the causes of suffering which humiliate and sadden man. It is, of course, impossible for pain to be entirely overcome in this way. On every human being’s path the anguish of death remains. But everything receives new light from the paschal mystery. Suffering endured with love and united to Christ’s bears fruits of salvation: it becomes "salvific pain". Even death, if faced with faith, takes on the reassuring aspect of a passage to eternal life, in expectation of the resurrection of the flesh. We can thus understand how rich and deep is the salvation brought by Christ. He came to save not only every person, but also the whole person.
PSacramento

A long document:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
Summerized here:
Hope
102. Within the hope that the Church bears for the whole of humanity and wants to proclaim afresh to the world of today, is there a hope for the salvation of infants who die without Baptism? We have carefully re-considered this complex question, with gratitude and respect for the responses that have been given through the history of the Church, but also with an awareness that it falls to us to give a coherent response for today. Reflecting within the one tradition of faith that unites the Church through the ages, and relying utterly on the guidance of the Holy Spirit whom Jesus promised would lead his followers “into all the truth” (Jn 16:13), we have sought to read the signs of the times and to interpret them in the light of the Gospel. Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the Beatific Vision. We emphasise that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us (cf. Jn 16:12). We live by faith and hope in the God of mercy and love who has been revealed to us in Christ, and the Spirit moves us to pray in constant thankfulness and joy (cf. 1 Thess 5:18).
103. What has been revealed to us is that the ordinary way of salvation is by the sacrament of Baptism. None of the above considerations should be taken as qualifying the necessity of Baptism or justifying delay in administering the sacrament.[135] Rather, as we want to reaffirm in conclusion, they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the Church.
tec

Men MUST go through Jesus to reach God. Amen?
Amen!
Still Thinking - I can barely read that without going cross-eyed. Anyone think a child could understand it? I get that you're saying, PSac, that it was written that way in order to combat something spreading, but as far as I can see, it just served to muddy the waters even more. Reading it just leads me to not accept it even more.
none is greater, or less than another.
"The Father is greater than I."
I don't see how this can only refer to Christ during his time as a man, in light of the following scripture, which speaks of a time after Christ is already risen and returned and all is accomplished:
1 Corinthians 15: 24-28 "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
Tammy
still thinking

Would you like to at least highlight your points please.
And.....don't bother trying to deny that If I said I wanted to be baptised but did not accept their teachings on trinity they would do it.
soooooo. as far as they are concerned you must be baptised to be saved. That is why they baptise babies.
PSacramento

I get that you're saying, PSac, that it was written that way in order to combat something spreading, but as far as I can see, it just served to muddy the waters even more. Reading it just leads me to not accept it even more.
I agree, hence my issues with the Trinity Doctrine ( and pretty much any doctrien formualted by man trying tounderstand the un-understandable).
That is why, over the centuries, the various denominations have tried to clear those muddy waters, LOL !
To me, in short, Jesus shares the same nature as God and as such, Jesus is divine.
Period.
Beyond that, I will allow the HS to guid me.

The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

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