The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY. (page 8)

designs

We're so glad the > godrulz< guys stop by from time to time to let us all know what a huge bullet we dodged not getting involved in another Cult.

Our Motto: One Cult per Lifetime...

Nowhere in the Gospel is equating Jesus with the Father required. Christ came in the flesh (no mention he was God), lived and died as a man having committed no sin (still nothing about God), was resurrected 3 days later (not seeing God here), ascended into Heaven to sit at the right hand of God (hmmm).

Trinitarians demand belief in the Trinity is required for salvation and the only place I can find that idea is in man-made dogma, e.g. the Athenasian Creed: "He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity." Churches demand their followers accept the man-made doctrine of the Trinity by threatening them with another man-made doctrine - Hellfire. Of course, these are "revealed" dogmas, which means they are not actually stated in Scripture, but had to be presented by the Church, then adopted by the members. People who insist they understand the Trinity and see it in Scripture are delusional. Anyone who's seen A Beautiful Mind will gain insight into the mental functions of a rabid Trinitarian.

The Trinity doctrine is either a pretentious "zen" belief where claiming faith in the unbelievable is considered "holy" or it's simply the rantings of a lunatic. In most cases, I believe it's the former, which is where the erroneous understanding of "faith" comes in. Many theists and atheists define faith as believing in something that can't possibly be known. They see knowledge as the opposite of faith and proof or understanding of God undermines faith, because in order to have faith - in their minds - one must believe in something they don't know about.

On the other hand, when someone says something along the lines of "I understand the Trinity because the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me", you might as well just walk away, because you're dealing with a nutter. No matter what, you can never pry a belief out of someone's head who believes God himself put it there. It would be like trying to explain to someone who has taken far too many hallucinogenics that there are no spiders on him, when he believes he's looking right at them. People who hear voices have gone beyond the point of being rational and nothing positive can come of arguing with them.

Anyone who's ever had to deal with someone on psychotropic drugs (whether taking ones they weren't supposed to or failing to take ones they were) knows how impossible it is to rationalize with someone whose mind is telling them things. Anyone willing to stand in front of a group and babble like an idiot and call it religion is beyond help. Either they've succumb to mass hysteria or they have their own individual mental problems which have found a place to manifest themselves and be accepted and praised. This is exactly why atheism is growing extremely quickly: The "mainstream" religions are ridiculous and encourage or even demand their follower be delusional and insane.

Terry

I think what is apparent is that the minds who conceived the necessity of making a doctrine of Trinity a CREED are also

the same minds that gave us the Bible canon.

keyser soze

The trouble with Christianity: Christians

godrulz

There is a big difference between a created being, Michael, ceasing to exist, a man being created, and then Michael recreated and God Himself coming in the flesh (Col. 2:9; Jn. 1:1-14; Phil. 2:5-11). Any false group can talk about generic jesus, a created being coming down, etc., but only biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity can know the Father through the God-Man, the Lord Jesus Christ, Almighty God. It is a false Christ to deny His essential Deity and equality with the Father. Those who have left one lie (WT) are still peddling the same Arian lie and not coming to a knowledge of the truth. Don't listen to the generic jesus idea held by many still in false religion. Christianity is unique because Jesus is worshipped as God Almighty, who He said He was. Trusting a counterfeit Christ is worthless. This does not mean one has to understand or even embrace the trinity to be saved (we are saved by grace through faith, not theological perfection). One can confess that Jesus is YHWH before understanding the triune implications (catch up later). The early church related to Jesus as God and God as trinity even without formal creeds and explanations that came later in response to heretical attacks like Arianism. One cannot be a Christian and deny who He is (God).

Nobleheart

The WT misrepresents the doctrine of Trinity by inaccurately defining it as "Three Gods in one". There are several misquotes from different sources mentioned in the Trinity brochure, which are brought out at www.jwfacts.com. For example:

Trinity Brochure:

"Jesuit Fortman states: "The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."" (ti p.6) The Triune God, Edward Fortman

The actual quote:

"They give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated."

Trinity Brochure:

"The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word [tri´as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."" (ti p.5) The Catholic Encyclopedia(newadvent.org /cathen/ 15047a.htm 21/12/2006)

The actual quote:

"The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom" ("Ad. Autol.", 11, 15, P. G., VI, 1078). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."

Trinity Brochure:

"And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "And the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]."" (tip.6) New Catholic Encyclopedia - p.306

The actual quote:

"The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the OT. ? In many places of the OT however, expressions are used in which some of the Fathers of the Church saw references or foreshadowings of the Trinity."

etc, etc.

WontLeave

@godrulz

katabiblon.com is a great interlinear of the NT and Septuagint.

It has an interesting footnote on Col 2:9:

Gr. θε?της, God-ness; that is, in him resides (in bodily form) everything you need as regards God-related stuff, such that nothing you need is to be obtained by turning to extraneous traditions and rules.

This is right in line with John 1:18. Jesus teaches us everything we need to know about God. The Father is beyond the realm of our comprehension, so man-made dogmas are unnecessary and likely to be wrong. Keep in mind, most English Bibles are translated by people just like you; people with agendas who see their dogma everywhere they look. So, when presented with an opportunity to interpret the Scriptures - which is occasionally necessary when translating - they lean toward their pre-conceived ideas. But that is dishonest and the Bible warns against adding to or taking away from God's Word.

I actually address John 1:1 in a post I've pointed you toward, before. If you have opted not to read it, then I'll opt not to repeat it.

As far as Philippians 2, even in the awkward translations that push the Trinity agenda by twisting the meaning, this passage does more harm than good for the Trinity:

God exalted him

and gave him the name

Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

If God exalted Jesus, who is God again? If God gave Jesus the name above all others, who is God again? If Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father, who is God again?

Where this scripture is properly translated, it merely contrasts Jesus with Satan. Jesus didn't attempt a coup d'état in Heaven, even though he held a higher position than Satan. Jesus, the only-begotten and being above the angels, remained subservient to God, whereas Satan - a mere angel - rebelled and sought to usurp God's rule and upset the proverbial "apple cart".

Show me in the Bible where belief in the Trinity is required. You made this statement

The Deity of Christ is not negotiable, but essential, salvific truth.

and I want to know where you got it. I found it in a man-made creed (which you reject adherence to) but nowhere in Scripture (which is where you claim all your beliefs come from).

One cannot be a Christian and deny who He is (God).

So, when Jesus said "the Father is greater than I", " the Father who sent me", " I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me", " I will ask the Father", " no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father", etc, etc, etc... was he just screwing with us and making it impossible to understand, then later demanding we believe something he'd denied the whole time he was here? The Trinity calls Jesus a liar and that is entirely unChristian. The Hellfire doctrine maligns God and the Trinity doctrine insults Jesus. The way you're shouting them from the rooftops, I'd hate to be in your shoes.

Georges.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not a student . It is just immagine , theorizable .
Know is to live ...
George

Terry

We have the Hebrew monotheists writings vs the Gentile Pagan polytheists writings

BOTH IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.

That is why there is no direct statement about a Doctrine Trinity.

Each group spoke from a "given". No need to explain or expatiate on a "given."

For the Hebrew monotheists God was a singular personality.

For Gentile Pagan polytheists a Demi-god multiplicity was no big deal.

Georges.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not a student . It is just immagine , theorizable .
Know is to live ...
George

The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

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