The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

by whereami 209 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    @PSacramento
    Unless you're under the impression all other English words were imported without any damage, I'm not sure if you're trying to be argumentative or if you're so seething with hate for Jehovah's Witnesses that you refuse to accept a word that preexisted them for several hundred years, just because it's associated with the group.

    It has nothinbg to do with english words being "imported without damage" ( Corruption is a better word), it has to do with the grammatic impossibility of Jehovah coupled with the historical information we have on the actual origins of the word "Jehovah".

    I'll give you a hint, look it up in exodus ;)

    Again, in the end the choiceis yours, but even in their book "the name that will endure", The JW's admit the history of the term "Jehovah" and that itis used because of the popularity and familiarity of it, not that it is correct.

    Here you go:

    How Is God's Name Pronounced?

    The truth is, nobody knows for sure how the name of God was originally pronounced. Why not? Well, the first language used in writing the Bible was Hebrew, and when the Hebrew language was written down, the writers wrote only consonants—not vowels. Hence, when the inspired writers wrote God's name, they naturally did the same thing and wrote only the consonants.

    While ancient Hebrew was an everyday spoken language, this presented no problem. The pronunciation of the Name was familiar to the Israelites and when they saw it in writing they supplied the vowels without thinking (just as, for an English reader, the abbreviation "Ltd." represents "Limited" and "bldg." represents "building").

    Two things happened to change this situation. First, a superstitious idea arose among the Jews that it was wrong to say the divine name out loud; so when they came to it in their Bible reading they uttered the Hebrew word 'Adho·nai' ("Sovereign Lord"). Further, as time went by, the ancient Hebrew language itself ceased to be spoken in everyday conversation, and in this way the original Hebrew pronunciation of God's name was eventually forgotten.

    In order to ensure that the pronunciation of the Hebrew language as a whole would not be lost, Jewish scholars of the second half of the first millennium C.E. invented a system of points to represent the missing vowels, and they placed these around the consonants in the Hebrew Bible. Thus, both vowels and consonants were written down, and the pronunciation as it was at that time was preserved.

    When it came to God's name, instead of putting the proper vowel signs around it, in most cases they put other vowel signs to remind the reader that he should say 'Adho·nai'. From this came the spelling Iehouah, and, eventually, Jehovah became the accepted pronunciation of the divine name in English. This retains the essential elements of God's name from the Hebrew original.

    The fact is that IF they had gone to a hebrew linguist they waould also have realised the "impossibility" of "Jehovah" based on the "IAM that I AM" fro Exodus.

    But again, to each their own.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Jesus taught the jewish people to embrace Himself (Jesus Christ) as the long awaited Messiah...when paul preached the gospel to the gentiles he taught that the gentiles should "turn" or repent or embrace the living God.
    But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, who in bygone generations allowed all nations to walk in their own ways. (acts 14:14-16)

    The issues that Paul and Barnabas had was that the people were prasing THEM as Zeus ( Barnabas) and Hermes ( Paul).

    8 In Lystra there was a man sitting who could not use his feet and had never walked, for he had been crippled from birth. 9 He listened to Paul as he was speaking. And Paul, looking at him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, 10 said in a loud voice, “Stand upright on your feet.” And the man c sprang up and began to walk. 11 When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” 12 Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, d brought oxen and garlands to the gates; he and the crowds wanted to offer sacrifice. 14 When the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting, 15 “Friends, e why are you doing this? We are mortals just like you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them. 16 In past generations he allowed all the nations to follow their own ways; 17 yet he has not left himself without a witness in doing good—giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, and filling you with food and your hearts with joy.” 18 Even with these words, they scarcely restrained the crowds from offering sacrifice to them.

    19 But Jews came there from Antioch and Iconium and won over the crowds. Then they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing that he was dead. 20 But when the disciples surrounded him, he got up and went into the city. The next day he went on with Barnabas to Derbe.

  • Terry
    Terry

    1.If the TRINITY is important for humans to know, believe and understand as well as teach, Jesus would have made it central

    to his ministry.

    2.If the Apostles knew and understood the Trinity as something vital to the faith it would be foremost in their preaching.

    3.If Paul taught a completely separate understanding of everything from ancient times to post-Jesus christianity his source

    could only have been: A. Direct from God B. Imagination C.mental illness D.Gnostic ideas mixed with scholarly guesses

    None of the above gives me any confidence that the TRINITY is actually a bible-originated teaching, an actual Doctrine or even data.

    Why would it matter to a GOD OF LOVE if humans found this confusing, divisive, confutable and bizarre?

    The first huge fight in the early church which split the believers and peeled them off into sects was this very TOPIC: the nature of Jesus.

    Sending forth divisions among brothers is one of the 7 deadly sins. Why isn't the TRINITY a sin?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    The first huge fight in the early church which split the believers and peeled them off into sects was this very TOPIC: the nature of Jesus.

    Of course its was, it is at the very heart of the salvation issue.

    The problem was the language that was adopted, it caused9(s) more problems than it solved(s).

    In a nutshell, all it meant was that Jesus was begotten of God and as such, shared his very nature and as such, he was Divine.

    The mess happened when they went BEYOND that in their "explanation" of what it meant.

    Sad thing is that outside of Ariansism, pretty much every Christian is accepting of Christ being the same nature as God.

  • Terry
    Terry

    The mystery cults were overladen with secrets, inside information, private rituals and such.

    The ideas contained in the TRINITY are a natural outgrowth of THAT HERMETIC THINKING.

    Plain spoken Jewish believers held for thousands of years a core simplicty of definition about the identity of god.

    For one thing it was g*d!

    Speaking THE NAME was blasphemy for a good reason. (Not the way the Watchtower labels it as superstition).

    There was only ONE true god and misusing that name was a profound injury to the majesty of his Supreme Sovereignty.

    For a man to come along who ONLY REFERRED TO HIMSELF AS THE SON of g*d was enough to swallow without promoting

    that person to the summit of all being: CO-IDENTITY.

    This is clearly a pagan construction and the split between messianic christians and pagan-convert-christians began with this notion.

  • godrulz
    godrulz

    The triune understanding is biblical, not pagan. WT are rationalists who want simple, pat answers for everything to make things reasonable and easy. God's reality and spiritual truth based on revelation may not be simple and revelation will always trump reason. Jesus even hid His identity as Messiah (truth) for much of His ministry. The full understanding of the doctrine of God was progressively revealed over time (so, Old Testament emphasizes monotheism, while Deity of Christ and personality/Deity of Holy Spirit awaits the NT Heb. 1:1-3). The trinity is systematically defensible and Arianism is refutable. We can show that there is one God by nature/substance/essence/uncreated spirit, that the Father is called God (and given names/titles/attributes of Deity), the Son is called God (at least 40 Deity of Christ verses vs 6 main Arian ones that usually refer to His humanity/humiliation/incarnation), the Holy Spirit is personal and God; yet, the Father is not the Son as to personal distinction, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father. The only way to reconcile these parameters is a triune understanding (compound unity vs solitary being like Arian/Sabellian views).

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    The mystery cults were overladen with secrets, inside information, private rituals and such.

    Which the 1st and 2nd century and even the 3rd, christianity didnt have.

    The ideas contained in the TRINITY are a natural outgrowth of THAT HERMETIC THINKING.

    Paul's writting and John's beg to differ.

    Plain spoken Jewish believers held for thousands of years a core simplicty of definition about the identity of god.

    Indeed, but there is much more to it than that.

    For one thing it was g*d!
    Speaking THE NAME was blasphemy for a good reason. (Not the way the Watchtower labels it as superstition).
    There was only ONE true god and misusing that name was a profound injury to the majesty of his Supreme Sovereignty.
    For a man to come along who ONLY REFERRED TO HIMSELF AS THE SON of g*d was enough to swallow without promoting

    Let's not forget that on more then one occasion we are told the people tried to stone Jesus, and not in a good way ;)

    that person to the summit of all being: CO-IDENTITY.

    The notion of only begotten was very clear for the Jews, hence the blasphemy, as was the forgiveness of sin (something that only God could do).

    This is clearly a pagan construction and the split between messianic christians and pagan-convert-christians began with this notion.

    Perhaps, and I am sure that when dealing with "pagans" it makes sense to explain things in a way that THEY would understand and perhpas that is where the language got muddled.

    NOT because pagan notions were adopted to Christianity but because CHristianity USED them to get to a common ground with the pagans.

  • designs
    designs

    godrulz-

    If you can't or won't see the contradictions in the Trinity then go back to Sunday School 101 and start over...........

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear PSacramento...

    I know the context of the scripture I quoted and thank you for giving the "backdrop" of the discourse...Paul and Barnabas tore their clothes in distress at being called gods when they were in nature the same as their audience...

    in mark 14:62-63 and matthew 26:63-65 the pharisees also tore their clothes in distress that Jesus would call Himself Son of God and then Son of Man...

    the pharisees could/would not accept that God could dwell with them in a human body...the apostles and paul contrast this with their teaching that God did dwell with them in a human body the God/Man was a different nature than man alone and God alone (the Word became flesh)(col.2:9). as christians we are partakers of the divine nature through Jesus Christ (2 peter 1:4) but we are not God/Man...as Jesus the only begotten Son of God is.

    love michelle

  • godrulz
    godrulz

    Designs: there are no contradictions in the triune understanding, but there are in the WT straw man caricature of it (3 gods, 3 gods in 1 god, 3-headed god, 3 persons in 1 person). There is no contradiction to say that God is one in one sense (spirit nature), but plural/diverse in another sense (personal distinctions). Three personal distinctions in one infinite spirit of God is not contradictory (1X1X1=1, not 1+1+1=1, though He is 3 in one sense, but 1 in another sense).

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit