by whereami 209 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
'did God die, some say yes some say no, and thenyou have the 'well for just a split second' crowd.... '
Maybe, that's why they have god abandoning/cutting his connection w jesus, at the last second, so that god doesn't go down to hell w jesus;) Seems chicken#@%^, to me.
S
Sab-
It gets more nuanced, did both the human and god part of Jesus both go into Hell (Hypostatic Union). Since the official Trinity teaching demands Homoousias and Omnipresence how did the Father and Holy Spirit leave, where do you go when you are everything and everywhere..........
Calculus anyone.......
One of the big problems I see with using the bible as the authoritative source for one's religious beliefs,, it is an ancient collection of books that was heavily influenced by who was in power after the roman empire used it to be a religion of the state,, and the gradual change that occurred in the process as christian went from the persecuted to the persecutors.
There is no doubt about the political influences at the time of the writings of different books in the bible cannon.
Religions comes to us from the deep collective unconscious part of our psyche, the more primitive the culture the less untainted the mythology thus a truer picture of what is being projected out of the unconscious to consciousness. But highly organized religious mythology that has fought to keep control of men's minds has been highly corrupted by political ambitions,, and so the beneficial effects they would have for the human psyche greatly reduced and in need of some major revamping to stay useful to our species,, I think the One God thing to be a step in the right direction but it has been used to exploit the masses to avoid fear of his vengeance.
THE Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Christ. The OT contexts that use this title identify THE Angel/messenger as Jehovah Himself. This is not to be confused with an angel, a created being. The Angel of the Lord is a title of Deity, not creature. Michael is creature. Deity as used theologically/historically refers to being God, not a subordinate god. The WT view and talk of Christ being Deity/divine would be polytheism, belief in more than one true God by nature (Gal. 4:8; I Cor. 8:4-6). Either Jesus is true God or false god. So-called gods are not Deity. Jesus claimed to be equal with the Father, not just a New Age divine being.
The eternal, invisible, triune God did not die (hence the argument that who ran the universe if God died is stupid; the Father and Holy Spirit did not incarnate and die, only the Son. The argument might have merit against modalism, not trinitarianism, though they say Father refers to Deity and Son of God refers to humanity, a wrong view totally). Jesus is the God-Man, one person with two natures. He can die because Deity added humanity. The God-Man died as to humanity, but not as to deity. God cannot die, but the One who died is God. Jude 9 does refer to a historical event, but it still distinguishes Michael/Jesus. Even on earth before resurrection, Jesus had authority/power, though limited and dependent as a human. As well, WT death as cessation is unbiblical. Death is separation, so the spirit left Jesus and remained conscious while the body was in the grave. Jesus died physically, but His spirit-soul continued on (soul sleep is heresy).
What I want to know is, why did the ancients eliminate the Goddess?
Heaven,
I think the Goddess elimination a strong indicator that the writers of these religious dogma had become very lopsided in their gender cultural outlook and so suppression of the female in themselves also caused some of their strict laws about homosexuality. They needed to keep in touch with the feminine that was lost when they choose and all powerful male God,, Hermaphrodite would have been better if your going to do away with the feminine.
I keep running into "Trinitarians" - thinking of my local Bible Study Class at the moment and of course Godrulz above - that claim anti-trinitarians deny the "deity" of Christ. Since I, as an anti-trinitarian, do believe Jesus was "divine" - given the divine nature by God Almighty - of and from the source of God I believe that accusation is an unfair one. I just now searched my dictionary for a better comprehension of "deity" and I notice one definition given - it is the 2nd one I admit - is that deity means to glorify as of supreme worth. I can ascribe to that definition of Christ whole-heartedly and still be anti-trinitarian. And I can do as Philippians Chapter 2 says - verse 9 "For this reason also (the fact he did not grasp at claiming equality with God - see verses 5-8 above) God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name above every other name so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground (the dead yet waiting resurrection) and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
A careful study of this entire second chapter of Philippians reveals the real issue that Trinitarians miss - Jesus was not similar to Satan - He was humble and submitted himself to God. Trinitarians prefer to say he is EQUAL to God and one wonders about their reasons - is it that they too might consider themselves "Gods" and equal to God too. Jesus did say in John chapter 8 that those who follow Satan are simply "unable to listen to his words - incapable of understanding - because they desire to do the works of THEIR father - which included crucifixion of the Master.
While I am sure there are anti-trinitarians that have done heinous deeds because none of us are "good" the point I was making in my previous comment Godrulz missed - I have been unable to find record of any anti-trinitarian KILLING another human being because his belief was not in agreement with what the anti-trinitarian perceived to be truth. But quite the reverse is true when one believes the Trinitarian dogma. I was referring not to the moral character of the people involved but rather to what the belief itself brought about as actions. Examine the actions and the results of any belief before accepting it is still a true and valid precept in my book and also one I believe the Christ himself would support.
Phil. 2:5-11 is strong support for the Deity of Christ. JWs are ignorant of Greek and mistranslate the passage. The name above all names is YHWH/Jehovah and the passage from Is. applied to YHWH is also applied to Jesus. For Paul and the early church, to confess Jesus as Lord was to confess Him as Almighty God, not watered down 'divine'. Salty has a long way to go to be a biblical Christian (her WT roots are still showing).
Frankiespeakin, thank you for your reply. Your thoughts are similar to mine. I think there had to have been a lot of homosexuality along with bisexuality going on. It must have been a very frightening time to be gay, or bi, or transgender back then. I am not saying that all gay people are women haters but I certainly believe those in ancient times had a lot of gender and sexual issues because of the rigidity of beliefs. I also believe fear had to have been rampant back then.
Also, another part to my thoughts is I have a sneaking suspicion that women were gaining more power than the ancients wanted them to have and so, dealt with that issue by subjugating them or slaughtering them (as in the case of the Witches). I also suspect that some, if not all of the disciples were gay.
It's always been about power, control, and a rigid set of beliefs. Anyone who was 'different' than the status quo was 'evil' and therefore, needed to be eliminated. And they were.
Dear Godrulz - I am sure this will come as a surprise to you but my anti-trinitarian views did not come from WT days - that became my belief long before I had even heard of the WTS. And the fact that WTS did not teach the Trinity doctrine was one of the first requirements I set before the sisters when they conducted my very first Bible Study. So do not attribute these views to the credit of the WTS. Thank you. But I am sure much of my WTS association does surface considering I spent nearly 40 years with them and do consider many of their teachings to be biblically correct.
