I like that reasoning myelaine....makes sense
The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.
by whereami 209 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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WontLeave
@godrulz
You're making a basic logical fallacy, in that if you can poke holes in others' theories that makes yours right. In reality, your theory can be just as wrong or even more so. Certain parts of the Trinity dogma are demonstrably false, from the Bible. Many Bible verses demand God and Jesus are not coequal or coeternal. The very father/son relationship indicates this. Jesus said he was returning to his god and our god. Paul said the Christ's head is God. The Christ is begotten, indicating a begetting or beginning.
Also, you keep insisting Christianity is monotheistic and that is blatantly false, unless you mean orthodox self-proclaimed "Christianity". The Bible is not monotheistic at all. I've heard the argument you keep making about there being only one "true God", which would make Jesus as a separate god a false god. But you and the others who make this argument don't understand the difference between "God" and "god". The Koine Greek used the same word for God and god, just as English does, only we capitalize it when referring specifically to the Father, Jehovah. Usually, Koine used a definite article to refer to God, rather than a generic use of the word "god".
Just like there are many mothers in the world, each of us only has one Mother. Because we recognize her as our mother, she is Mother (or Mom, Mommy, Mama, whatever) and not just a mother. We only have one Mother, but that doesn't mean no other mothers exist or they are false mothers. The Bible clearly uses the same word translated as "god" for angels. Are they false gods, since there is only one true God?
If we start worshiping Gabriel, that would be false worship and Gabriel would be a false God - albeit he wouldn't be responsible for our unilateral actions. Many ancient false pagan gods may have been statues and altars set up for demons interacting with humans and garnering worship for themselves, in opposition to Jehovah. Baal, Moloch, and perhaps some of the Egyptian and Greek gods may have actually had supernatural backing and were not simply myths and stories. Worshiping any of them would be wrong and they would be a false God. We actually see from Exodus that the Egyptian priests had some help from a false God who was opposing Jehovah when they were able to match some of Aaron's and Moses' miracles.
I absolutely agree there is only one true God and his name is Jehovah (in English). He has ordered us to show similar respect to his only-begotten as our Savior and Lord. The worship belongs to God and it is his to direct as he sees fit. Before Jesus died for our sins, Jehovah demanded all worship for himself. Once his son played the role he did and suffered for us, Jehovah gave Jesus position and authority he hadn't held before and for the first time, in the New Testament, the Almighty shares his throne with Jesus, even placing him on it for 1000 years. Eventually Jesus turns the rule back over to his Father, acknowledging the superior position of Jehovah. All of this is clearly spelled out, extremely simple, and requires no mental contortions or ignoring of uncomfortable scriptures.
Also, your theory is not the Trinity, unless you're simply avoiding some parts. The Trinity outright states the Father is entirely God, the Son is entirely God, and the Holy Spirit is entirely God; yet there are not 3 Gods, but 1 God. You never address each personality of the Godhead as individually being wholly God in and of himself.
While the Son was on earth and the Father was in Heaven, according to the Trinity dogma, where was God? When Jesus was baptized, the Father in Heaven acknowledged the Son on earth and sent Holy Spirit. This is a favorite of Trinitarians when dealing with Modalists, because Modalism defines Father, Son, Holy Spirit as the same person just acting in different roles, like Superman and Clark Kent. Since they are the same person, you'll never see them together. However, the problem this scene creates for the Trinity is we see Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in 3 different places, at the same time. If the Father is entirely God, the Son is entirely God, and the Holy Spirit is entirely God, how do you have each one in a different place at the same time, yet there is only one God?
Wouldn't it be easier just to go by what the Bible actually says is the relationship? You think God doesn't know our experience with what a father is? or what a son is? You think God purposely picked the worst possible symbolism and analogy to describe the Christ/God relationship? Regardless of the supernatural nature of God and Christ; despite both of them being beyond human comprehension, this is how God wanted us to view their relationship and put it in terms we would appreciate enough to show the proper respect and appreciation to each individual in their respective roles.
I - and many in this forum - have already put a lot of thought, study, and prayer into this matter and are not parroting any church doctrine. Many come right out and admit they have no idea, as the religions and biased Bible translators have so muddied the water of truth they are afraid to make a concrete decision about the nature of the God/Christ relationship. I can respect that, but to just regurgitate a demonstrably false church dogma while claiming a purely-Scriptural origin for it is just openly dishonest or indicative of willful ignorance. Whether it's Modalism, Arianism, JW-ism, Trinitarianism, or whatever man-made contrivance, they all fall short of the truth, as none can be totally contained within Scripture. The Bible doesn't argue both sides of an issue and if parts of the Bible are violated by a theory, the theory needs to change. Of course, Trinitarians, Modalists, and JWs all do mental backflips to avoid admitting their theories fail in light of Scripture and are in total denial. To one who cares more about what is right than who is right, when the Bible slaps a theory, that theory is dead and the Trinity can go right on the pile with all the other theories you recognize as false.
The problem with the Trinity is the same as problems every church (including JW) doctrine encounters. It goes beyond what the Bible actually says and starts getting into what men believe it infers. God told us what he wants us to know and we don't have to dissect his words and extrapolate specifics beyond what are stated. When men start adding detail the Bible doesn't divulge, they're usually wrong. The Trinity dogma goes beyond what is written to such an extent that it bumps heads with many verses and intricate tapestries of excuses are required to explain away the contradictions. The truth isn't that difficult and doesn't require so much work when encountering other truths. Jesus and the apostles didn't promote teachings that required them to spin outlandish adapters to allow them to link with Scripture.
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still thinking
WontLeave you said that beautifully. I think you may be inside my head translating my thoughts
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Farkel
satanus,
: But then, i'm a pantheist, ie, we are all god:)
Your argument is not without merit. We are ALL made of stuff from the stars. Every atom in our bodies is star-stuff. Not just humans, but plants and even insects and bacteria. We all share the same elements, molecules, crystals and compounds.
That is a FACT. Ergo, how can ANY of us claim superiority over any other life-form, then? Since we all share the same stuff, what makes our stuff superior to the other stuff, which is also the same stuff?
I won't go so far as to say we are all god, but I will go so far as to say we don't know shit about anything, and we'd better keep our minds open, lest our own arrogance messes us up and exposes our own stupidity and foolishness.
Farkel
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PSacramento
PS: are you a modalist/oneness then? Arian, modalist, trinitarian are the main options.
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, begotten and NOT created, I believe Him to be divine and the exact representation of Our Father and that in Jesus, all the God is dwells bodily.
I belive that Jesus is God, just as we are human, he can be nothing else, fully God and fully Human.
I believe the Holy Spirit to be God's spirit, hence it is God and I believe it to be in Christ also, hence it is Christ.
I believe that "GOD" is the term we use to describe the supreme being that created the universe and that supreme being is revealed to us in Our Father ( the creator), His Divine Son ( the agent of creation) and the HS that unites Them ( the force of creation).
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PSacramento
I absolutely agree there is only one true God and his name is Jehovah (in English)
Good luck with that.
;)
YHWH + Adonai= Jehovah, and people criticize trinitarian math, LOL !
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WontLeave
Actually, it's ???? + ??????? (Edit: Okay, never mind. The Hebrew didn't paste at all.); not YHWH + Adonai, which are transliterations. You might want to check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q%27re_perpetuum#Qere_perpetuumhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah#Pronunciation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton#Jehovah and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:He-YHWH.ogg before you "LOL" too much. The etymology of "Jehovah" is just as sound as many English words that nobody minds.
It's also been my experience that people who use "LOL" usually haven't said anything amusing.
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PSacramento
Actually, no, it isn't, but to each their own.
I suggest you have a chat with an Hebrew linguist, it may be quite revealing.
But again, to each their own.
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godrulz
Jehovah is as uncertain as any other transliteration. It is sheer speculation and most likely wrong. Yahweh is more likely. None of this matters if one denies the Deity of Christ, who Jesus is, the only name by which we are saved (Acts 4:12). The WT is also wrong to say that YHWH was in NT MSS. This is patently false except for a Hebrew translation (like a German or French one) of Greek.
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WontLeave
@PSacramento
Unless you're under the impression all other English words were imported without any damage, I'm not sure if you're trying to be argumentative or if you're so seething with hate for Jehovah's Witnesses that you refuse to accept a word that preexisted them for several hundred years, just because it's associated with the group.
@godrulz
I'm pretty sure nobody every said the tetragrammaton was in the Greek New Testament. The NWT actually states the appearances of "Jehovah" in their NT are assumed. Stop setting up straw men. This is what bugs me about you being here, with no first-hand understanding of being a JW; you often have no idea what you're talking about and you're only arguing with yourself. That and you're a broken record about Jesus being Almighty God, with your tired Trinity arguments everybody here has already heard many, many times. ...in fact, we've heard them many, many times from you. Maybe if you say it a few more times, we'll become hypnotized or brainwashed and come over to "your" side.